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Old 25th October 2011, 07:22 PM   #91
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Default Volt and stuff..

Hi Angelo,

We are really getting into the finer details where the differences are very subtle, but in my opinion...The Volt 2500.1, as a dedicated bass driver, has more weight and realism below 150Hz... The 2500.4 is better above 200Hz... But that means a three way and the extra crossover point, however good a crossover is... the best one is none at all...

Re AE drivers... The reason a lot of other manufacturers compare their drivers to Volt is because Volt are THE reference among references...!
Now the top of the range "M series "AE drivers are low MMS high (ish) BL, although they charge a lot extra for the more powerful Apollo motor. They are really good well-built drivers...
But The 10 year old and still(!) infamous Lambada / AE "White Paper" Ahem... claiming "mass don’t count" is just a load of marketing BS.
I have written a lot ( as have others) on just how ridiculous that argument is, I won’t repeat it here just search my old posts from a few years ago...
All the low inductance / copper rings does is extend the top end frequency response and allow a larger XMax by extending the magnetic force over a longer gap.
Now that’s good if you want to run the driver out to 2, 3 or 4KHz... I don’t recommend that under any circumstances.
Also re Xmax...Please never run any driver above 100Hz so that it is having to travel more than plus or minus 1mm. I repeat plus or minus 1mm MAX travel.
In my" Finale" speaker I ran a single Volt 2500.4 in a small VPL open baffle and fed it a full 200 watts of solid state power the SPL meter read 115dB at 1 meter averaged over music ( loud part of Gladiator soundtrack) The cone movement was only just visible...approx. plus or minus 0.5mm. Now this was crossed over at 300Hz with a 60dB linear phase filter...
Had the cone been moving plus or minus 1mm or more I would have doubled up the Volts to an MTM design...This simple technique is not liked by fancy driver manufacturers... But it works beautifully and simply sounds more natural than one "Ultra" driver pumping away with its 5mm, 10mm, 15mm or 50mm Xmax...
Why do the huge rubber hose pipe surround massive MMS car sub woofers with Xmax in meters sound so crap...

Ultra extended Xmax and ultra extended frequency response are at best wasted engineering expense that would be better spent elsewhere...At worst they are useless marketing hype trying to find some USP to differentiate themselves from other drivers...
Basically I am trying to say never operate a driver anywhere near its limit.
Also always strive to minimise cone / driver movement.
Look to maximise sensitivity by using the most efficient driver(s) and baffle(s).
Simple proven materials and techniques are the common threads that are found in most of the best sounding cone drivers... Good old paper cones, linen surround, large voice coils, powerful BL to low MMS.
Again I have written pages of this over the years along with lots of photos of how to build the baffles / boxes.
Sorry to ramble on as much...!
Hope its of help and interest.

Cheers

Derek.
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Old 25th October 2011, 09:26 PM   #92
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by Helmuth View Post
That's the only other single driver I'd recommend for this limited bandwidth.. It won't have quite as much "presence" as flat-damped surround driver, but it will have greater clarity. The decay character at the lower end (<400 Hz) however won't be as good as a driver with a flat-damped surround. So IMO, better at higher freq.s, worse at lower freq.s..
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Old 25th October 2011, 10:03 PM   #93
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Originally Posted by Overkill Audio View Post
All the low inductance / copper rings does is extend the top end frequency response and allow a larger XMax by extending the magnetic force over a longer gap.

Cheers

Derek.
Are you aware of a phenomenon known as flux modulation, or the distortion mechanism that is variation in Le(x) and Le(i)?
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Old 25th October 2011, 10:43 PM   #94
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by 454Casull View Post
Are you aware of a phenomenon known as flux modulation, or the distortion mechanism that is variation in Le(x) and Le(i)?

As a matter of distortion Inductance has 2 issues: Current and Displacement.

The "Current" variety is in relation to the permeability of the motor's magnet under thermal stress - generating higher HD. Shorting rings aren't the only way to deal with thermal stress. (..Of course Displacement factors-into Current - the longer the stroke the higher the flux, the greater the resistance from thermal stress.)

The Displacement variety (beyond current as mentioned above), is in relation to IMD which is in relation to freq.. IF the bandwidth is limited with a low-pass filter, practically speaking this becomes a non-issue. (..and ironically if the driver has higher levels of inductance then usually it's upper freq. response is at least partially "filtered" anyway.)



At least under the bandwidth limitations that Angelo has mentioned, neither should be a problem.

Basically it all comes down to the driver in it's application (and intended use).

Augerpro has several TD drivers actually measured on his "DriverMeasurements" website. Depending on how you use them, none of the AE TD drivers are necessarily superior with respect to non-linear distortion (..than some of the other Pro drivers also measured on the same site). If however you want to go "broad-band" with a driver - then sure: AE drivers have some objective compelling design features.


As a general note: while I'm not positive about this, but I believe the infamous "white paper" was from Adire, not Lambda.
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Last edited by ScottG; 25th October 2011 at 10:52 PM.
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Old 25th October 2011, 10:48 PM   #95
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BTW, a post here specifically mentions the PHL drivers in relation to the AE drivers:

Frankenstein becomes cindarella..I hope!
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Old 25th October 2011, 11:22 PM   #96
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Default Driver Tech stuff

Thanks Scott,

My tech knowledge on drivers is not that great.. your skills are superior...!

Good spot, it was Adire... my bad.
To be honest the real fine tech detail of driver motor design is not something I have ever been able to get my head around... I understand the basics, maybe even semi advanced... but I have always just concentrated on how they sound.
Its a whole grey area trying to correlate what driver parameters and measurements equate to the best /most natural sound.

Bottom line the AE M series are great sounding drivers.... so are the Volts, Beymas, and some Audax ( Aero gel is sweet) Seas ( Mag cones can be great) and a whole bunch of others that I will never have the chance to test...My point is there are lots of different ways to make great sounding drivers...There is no one " Magic Bullet " that one guy has patented...
Only good quality materials combined with high build quality and intelligent design optimised for a given bandwidth....

That’s my 10 pence worth...!
Cheers
Derek.

PS Designing drivers is very different from designing speakers...!
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Old 16th February 2012, 06:16 PM   #97
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Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post
There are some comments at hififorum.nu about the Beyma 12P80Nd combined with TPL-150 which are very encouraging :

maibe someone native of swedish has a better translation :

HiFiForum.nu - Två Halmstadflyttar och en björn i Nissan

Click the image to open in full size.

I have had time to play around with the new 12orna, . They are not even an iota of recorded yet, does not go nearly as deep as the 12P1000Ndsom sat in the same boxes two days ago. But what comes out! This is the most transient I've ever heard, with a resolution and with a tone that is purely amazing, I have not even heard a field coil element with the poise and sense of effortless at the base and the naturalness of voices and foundations in guitars and so on. I definitely think that anyone thinking of a little more TH or maybe kvartsvågspipor, or perhaps real horns, should include these elements in their thoughts. Then they can man be the foundation for a new model, a "supermoc" perhaps? TPL treble in originalmocarna included waveguide now, which enhance the sensitivity of 102dB, we need, then just find a nice 24 "or maybe 30" to the bottom? Ingvar



After a few days of listening, I think: the resolution, just like the version without the horns, incredible, välinspelade strings and percussion is ridiculous live and recordings that feels a little loud will be nicer then the element is completely free from ringing. Really bad recordings are however quite olyssningsbara when the treble is extremely revealing. Some boards feel a little # 8221, call # 8221; in the sound, probably due to the extremely low distortion, a compression driver is of course much higher 1st and 2nd harmonic distortion which adds some warmth and softness that are typically very pleasant to listen to. The combination QW-1 and the treble is really fun to listen to, now, are both basses to be recorded as well and they perform an amazing base and an addictive intimacy and life of the votes. Mathias: I have not really the plant, mocarna was too small, sometimes you could not find them if no music was played, it thus becomes larger versions, but there are advanced plans for a baby sister, mlk, (go ahead and guess! ) Hornta! Crossover 1200-1300, 2nd order LR, schedule is on PM, forgot to answer yours. Ingvar

how about a Beyma 12P80Nd to cover lower midrange, and Beyma 18P80Nd for bass duty ?

something like $100k speakers from Mark Levinson.....

Click the image to open in full size.
I can't find info on a 12orna driver anywhere, your glowing review makes me want to check it out. Can you post a link?
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Old 17th February 2012, 12:27 AM   #98
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was 12ORNA a typo for 12p80nd?
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Old 17th February 2012, 01:20 AM   #99
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Bad translation

12orna = 12 inchers.

Translated: I have had time to play around with the new 12 inchers.
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Old 3rd April 2012, 12:27 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post
Good to know that.

btw. i decided to keep Vitavox S2, and use the TPL-150 where the Coral tweeter used to be. Vitavox will cover a narrow range, from 500hz to 1,5khz only. I crossed the Fane Studio 8m at 500hz, and S2 up, but did not like it . let the Fane play parallel up to 1,2khz, and the Vitavox together, integrates better, and soundstage is better, than without the Vitavox. S2 is padded down with L-pad. While S2/H104 became fatiguing listening over time, with TPL-150 i can listen for hours, and i am not getting tired. What most impresses me is naturalness. Bad recordings sound bad, good ones sound good. Its amazing how it reveals things.....

Click the image to open in full size.

angelo i'm wondering have you ever try to completely simplify your sistem to the following config: sub-bass + fane up to 1.2k + TPL-150 (as dipole)

because i feel this is where a solution for horn lovers lies - you can make a very compact 2-way with subs of your choice (and even big hypex sub horns for ultimate...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by angeloitacare View Post
I just made a quick experiment, and replaced the lower midrange horn with Audax Medomex in open baffle. I switched L-pad to the tpl-150, so both, S2, and Beyma, are padded down, and so the bass horn ( i raised lowpass to ~ 250hz ) , to match efficiency with the Audax. My first reaction : Wow !! It might be that i am on something here.......
the solution is in front of your eyes - you've picked a wrong audax driver.

now it's back in production, there's not many cone drivers that can come close to pr170m0, and it's only around $90 a piece.

http://www.madisound.com/store/manua...ax/pr170m0.pdf

take pr170m0 and stuck it in a nice 100hz tractrix or (space permitting) le horn - you will get a perfectly (+- 1db) flat reproduction from 110 to 1500hz or little higher (the first breakups are around 1750hz), with a similar sensitivity as TPL-150 (approx 100-102db).

you will relax TPL-150 not to go into difficult lower knee areas so it will play HF better and you can get away with it without a supertweeter.

than just find a nice solution for 20-100hz and voila.

with a smart sub-bass solution this system could be driven with any SET amp.
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