Hi Guys. I like to think of myself as a bit of a dance music producer. just as a hobby, and because i enjoy it.
My PC has an Audigy sound card and it runs through an old Technics 2x110w amp.
the speakers im currently producing on are just borrowed from a fairly new JVC mini hifi system, two way, 6inch woofer and 2inch tweeter. I also have a pair of old kenwood two ways that are slightly larger cab but still 6inch and 2inch pairing. < id rather pull them down and rebuild some basic (next to monitor cabs) for them instead of the JVC, but heres my dilemma and why im posting this.
the music i play/produce on the JVC speakers sounds good on the JVC speakers. but on every other speaker no matter what the brand/size etc, sounds bassy and flat/dull like theres no real treble to the mix.
would it be fair to say that the JVC speakers are a bit too exaggerated in the tops and then when im producing to what sounds crisp, its actually not?
basically, what i want is a pair of simple desktop type speakers that i can rely on knowing they can go loud enough to hear properly, but at low volume be accurate enough so that im hearing what im actually going to get.
i used to use a pair of my Sony hifi speakers, they had a dual 6inch driver and a tweeter in the center, but they had crap bass and made my tracks sound even bassier on other speakers as i was overcompensating for their lack of bass.
im not 100% sure what im trying to ask, but if someone can decipher my situ maybe you can point me towards a happy medium.
the room is (maybe) 4-6 sq metres. and id be well within arms length of the speakers while producing. i have about 8inches on eithe side of the monitor before running out of shelf space.
an idea that i had, was to use the kenwood drivers in a tall tapped horn with the tweeter just above the mouth and the woofer facing out the mouth for the extra bass response.
im on a pretty tight budget, but could put aside $50-100 for wood over a couple weeks.
My PC has an Audigy sound card and it runs through an old Technics 2x110w amp.
the speakers im currently producing on are just borrowed from a fairly new JVC mini hifi system, two way, 6inch woofer and 2inch tweeter. I also have a pair of old kenwood two ways that are slightly larger cab but still 6inch and 2inch pairing. < id rather pull them down and rebuild some basic (next to monitor cabs) for them instead of the JVC, but heres my dilemma and why im posting this.
the music i play/produce on the JVC speakers sounds good on the JVC speakers. but on every other speaker no matter what the brand/size etc, sounds bassy and flat/dull like theres no real treble to the mix.
would it be fair to say that the JVC speakers are a bit too exaggerated in the tops and then when im producing to what sounds crisp, its actually not?
basically, what i want is a pair of simple desktop type speakers that i can rely on knowing they can go loud enough to hear properly, but at low volume be accurate enough so that im hearing what im actually going to get.
i used to use a pair of my Sony hifi speakers, they had a dual 6inch driver and a tweeter in the center, but they had crap bass and made my tracks sound even bassier on other speakers as i was overcompensating for their lack of bass.
im not 100% sure what im trying to ask, but if someone can decipher my situ maybe you can point me towards a happy medium.
the room is (maybe) 4-6 sq metres. and id be well within arms length of the speakers while producing. i have about 8inches on eithe side of the monitor before running out of shelf space.
an idea that i had, was to use the kenwood drivers in a tall tapped horn with the tweeter just above the mouth and the woofer facing out the mouth for the extra bass response.
im on a pretty tight budget, but could put aside $50-100 for wood over a couple weeks.
You want basically flat frequency response for mixing like you found out. If your speakers have a U shaped response your mix will come out the opposite, (n-shaped ? 
). Aim for your mix sounding how you want it on a system with flat frequency response (or if you're mixing it for yourself you may consider compensating for your own speaker's weaknesses).
As always the problem here is money. I wouldn't mess with the speakers you have unless you have a way to measure the thiele/parameters.
If you have a measurement mic that would be great, then you could use a parametric eq on the speakers you have.
If you don't have that I'd suggest eq'ing them by ear to as flat as possible. Use pink noise or possibly sine sweeps especially if you don't have a good reference.
). Aim for your mix sounding how you want it on a system with flat frequency response (or if you're mixing it for yourself you may consider compensating for your own speaker's weaknesses).As always the problem here is money. I wouldn't mess with the speakers you have unless you have a way to measure the thiele/parameters.
If you have a measurement mic that would be great, then you could use a parametric eq on the speakers you have.
If you don't have that I'd suggest eq'ing them by ear to as flat as possible. Use pink noise or possibly sine sweeps especially if you don't have a good reference.
hmmm, the EQ factor sounds the go, i guess i could save a preset EQ setting within the software i use, but then would i activate it before or after production... hmmm...
on the other hand, i could certainly measure the basic T/s params like i have been suggested with my other speakers and then go from there?
actually, i just had an idea, i might just confirm that theyre not out of phase, 99.9% sure theyre not, but doesnt hurt to check...
something else to add, i used to use the same JVC speakers in the lounge room, they sounded pretty decent in the lounge, but now the system lives in a much smaller room and suddenly they sound like they have no bass. can see em pumping, but not doing alot... so ill check the polarity first and maybe then look to placement issues.
on the other hand, i could certainly measure the basic T/s params like i have been suggested with my other speakers and then go from there?
actually, i just had an idea, i might just confirm that theyre not out of phase, 99.9% sure theyre not, but doesnt hurt to check...
something else to add, i used to use the same JVC speakers in the lounge room, they sounded pretty decent in the lounge, but now the system lives in a much smaller room and suddenly they sound like they have no bass. can see em pumping, but not doing alot... so ill check the polarity first and maybe then look to placement issues.
Measuring the T/S parameters may be helpful if you are planning to build a box. What you want is a measurement mic. If you produce, then it should be one you can use as a reference.
Unless you like to EQ differently for normal listening, the EQ to make the system flat would be a kind of permanent thing.
You may want to make sure the sound is free of some of the standard issues such as..are the cabinet walls vibrating, is there some stuffing in the box, do they have any unusual plastic bezels on the front or discontinuities that would create/exploit diffraction, etc.
About the JVCs, room placement is important. No doubt the sub helped. Try placing them in the corners to see...but don't leave them there.
Unless you like to EQ differently for normal listening, the EQ to make the system flat would be a kind of permanent thing.
You may want to make sure the sound is free of some of the standard issues such as..are the cabinet walls vibrating, is there some stuffing in the box, do they have any unusual plastic bezels on the front or discontinuities that would create/exploit diffraction, etc.
About the JVCs, room placement is important. No doubt the sub helped. Try placing them in the corners to see...but don't leave them there.
k, that makes sense, only the eq i have is part of the FruityLoops software, it just have to set a preset and be sure to load it up each time i start a new file.
walls arent vibrating, i dont think theres any stuffing, and they have unusual bezels. but theyve always had that...
im building one of Jbells ss15 cabs for my alpine S-type 12inch sub that will give me this:
i think once all thats built and working, im not sure ill need to worry about my lack of bass... but id still like them to sound their best coz i still have the sounding flat on other speakers issue...
maybe that could be adjusted with the EQ instead??
Room placement is just as important. The sub will help here because now there'll be three bass producing units instead of two, helping to distribute bass evenly into the room.
If you add a sub but do it wrongly, you'll still have bass issues but they'll be heavier.
Once you begin dealing with acoustic problems, EQ fails. You can make a problem frequency range more quiet, and it will still sound like the same problem only quiet, plus you'll miss all the good stuff.
If the speakers produce less bass and you want more, or if you like to listen with more/less treble then EQ is the perfect solution.
its not so much that i like to listen to more or less bass or treble.
if im right with this, its actually that theyre possibly too sensitive in the tweeter, so when im hearing crisp highs on the JVC speakers, everywhere else, its dull and flat.
heres a link to a track im halfway through. perhaps you can judge it based on sound quality alone to assess what im referring to.
klampykixx
i was told that this sounded really bass heavy and quite dull on my friends 5.1 system, and then i checked it on my sony hifi and i tend to agree that its bass heavy and flat/dull. yet, on the JVC, and also in my headphones, (sennheiser hd202) it sounds nice, crisp, clear and not with massively overpowering bass.
perhaps its just the way i like it to sound... and i guess, when i play it on the PA i tend to adjust the EQ to suit my sound, so on the PA it sounds good also, but everywhere else, ... who knows... let me know if you think its just me, (my hearing could be starting to go.... ??) or if its my speakers being a little too bright, of which, i could either adjust in the EQ, or even maybe adjust the cross over in the cabs to tone down the tweeter some.....
let me know thanks
Well, first of all, you're right about mixing with speakers that exaggerate certain frequency bands - you'll "fix" the EQ of the speakers with your mix.
Listening through M-Audio AV30s the mix sounded good, but they have no bass. Using AT MA-30 headphones, the bass was a lot deeper, but the highs still sounded good. Moving to MA-40s (full ear coverage) the bass went really deep and the highs started sounding recessed.
Hardly a definitive audition, but I think what's going on is your bass signal isn't really a bass note that can be reproduced, but a seismic trigger that causes the woofer to resonate. It works with "tight" speakers, but if the speaker starts adding it's own bump, then the overall balance shifts, and the highs get lost.
Trouble is, one speaker can't represent everything, so back when we had a studio, we mixed things, then auditioned them on four different speakers, including a trip to the car (this was back when AM radio play still mattered).
Listening through M-Audio AV30s the mix sounded good, but they have no bass. Using AT MA-30 headphones, the bass was a lot deeper, but the highs still sounded good. Moving to MA-40s (full ear coverage) the bass went really deep and the highs started sounding recessed.
Hardly a definitive audition, but I think what's going on is your bass signal isn't really a bass note that can be reproduced, but a seismic trigger that causes the woofer to resonate. It works with "tight" speakers, but if the speaker starts adding it's own bump, then the overall balance shifts, and the highs get lost.
Trouble is, one speaker can't represent everything, so back when we had a studio, we mixed things, then auditioned them on four different speakers, including a trip to the car (this was back when AM radio play still mattered).
so based on that^^ what i think i might do, is clean up the kenwood speakers and use them in conjunction with the JVCs, that way i can switch between pairs of drivers and get a wider representation of what im actually putting together.
on that note, if i was still interested in building myself a pair of new desktop speakers, and could find the T/s params of the drivers id be using, what sort of cab should i be looking at checking out?
can i scale down a Jbell SS15 for a 6inch driver and have it yield similar scaled down response or does it not work like that? just to add to this question, if i was to do that, i would pick a driver that i knew the T/s for so i wasnt just guessing...
TH, OB, Ported, Sealed, ?? i could even go as far as building a small rear loaded horn and using up the group of 4 6inch drivers i have that've never been used...
what do you guys think?
on that note, if i was still interested in building myself a pair of new desktop speakers, and could find the T/s params of the drivers id be using, what sort of cab should i be looking at checking out?
can i scale down a Jbell SS15 for a 6inch driver and have it yield similar scaled down response or does it not work like that? just to add to this question, if i was to do that, i would pick a driver that i knew the T/s for so i wasnt just guessing...
TH, OB, Ported, Sealed, ?? i could even go as far as building a small rear loaded horn and using up the group of 4 6inch drivers i have that've never been used...
what do you guys think?
k, that makes sense, only the eq i have is part of the FruityLoops software, it just have to set a preset and be sure to load it up each time i start a new file.
walls arent vibrating, i dont think theres any stuffing, and they have unusual bezels. but theyve always had that...
im building one of Jbells ss15 cabs for my alpine S-type 12inch sub that will give me this:
i think once all thats built and working, im not sure ill need to worry about my lack of bass... but id still like them to sound their best coz i still have the sounding flat on other speakers issue...
maybe that could be adjusted with the EQ instead??
If you want accurate bass response in your mixes, please GOD don't build a horn sub. There's a sure way to make a mess of things.
As others have pointed out, you need an accurate pair of speakers suitable for the nearfield. A good pair with 8" woofers won't require a sub so some savings there. Consider a used pair of Behringer 2031P's. These have been measured and tested against some of the mst highly regarded speakers available today and have held their own. They're usually available in music publications, classifieds and eBay or scratch and dent sales from music stores. IMO given your budget and level of experience it's the way to go. Here's the results of a pretty in depth measurement session from one of the most noteworthy speaker designers around.
Zaph|Audio
Sorry, I don't listen from my net computer. Are you able to link to the file?
The cold reality of this is that "crisp" highs in this particular sense are not natural. To put this another way, if you engineer them that way that is one thing, but if a speaker has been produced to create a "sparkle" to everything, the speaker is not accurate. More specifically it has been produced to appeal to a specific market.
With a hifi speaker, the treble will not be obvious. It will not upstage the midrange and in fact may even have a slight rolloff. It is there only to "fill in" the harmonics.
Sounds good. So does your plan for new speakers. I wouldn't build any of those fancy cabinets for monitoring though.
im not 100% sure this link will work.. Podcast Download
i think im going to assess the kenwood speakers i have first before i do anything. they may sound more natural if my memory serves.
i think im going to assess the kenwood speakers i have first before i do anything. they may sound more natural if my memory serves.
I would agree with most of this. Tonally, it sounds fairly good as is, but not free of small issues.
In my opinion, the bass is heavy but is not overpowering, but this kind of bass will overwhelm or bring out the worst in some speakers.
The synth cymbal is just where I'd want it, but then I don't like that line to be exaggerated.
It is the backing that is coming across as dull (or warm or smooth depending on your perspective) but probably a little too much.
My first impression was of a lack of midrange and then a few conflicting thoughts but now I wonder whether your speakers are suffering from not having a woofer crossover and the woofer cone breakup is contaminating your sound. You may be pulling back somewhere near the crossover region.
Due to the effort required in redoing these speakers compared to replacing them, I'd be inclined to stop using them.
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now that you say that, i certainly would not be surprised if the XO is purely a cap on the tweeter... lol
when i get a chance, either tonight or tomorrow night, ill swap out the JVCs for the Kenwoods and see how they go. the Kenwoods are an older speaker and in a bigger reflex cab, so if they sound ok, ill use em. if not, ill beg my dad to let me have his old EV theater speakers! mmm,BR 8inch 30w driver with a silkdome attenuable tweeter and full of fibreglass wadding. in my dreams apparently....
OK people, I have adjusted my aim here slightly.
Would I be swearing at the forum if I was to ask about using two pairs of car audio splits as my desktop speakers?
I have two pairs of woofers from the Dayton/VDO MPS1700 splits I used to have in the car.
I have them currently in my Kenwood enclosures and in the ported box they lack a little bass, but they sound ok. and they actually seem to sound better when i block the ports and seal the cab with my hand.
, Im contemplating making about a 20L sealed cab with two woofers+tweeter to make up the 8ohms my amp likes.
so basically I just want to know what the majority thinks about using car speakers in a hifi application and if anyones done it and what the results were like.
I did a bit of a search and didnt come up with much that was usefull.
Would I be swearing at the forum if I was to ask about using two pairs of car audio splits as my desktop speakers?
I have two pairs of woofers from the Dayton/VDO MPS1700 splits I used to have in the car.
I have them currently in my Kenwood enclosures and in the ported box they lack a little bass, but they sound ok. and they actually seem to sound better when i block the ports and seal the cab with my hand.
, Im contemplating making about a 20L sealed cab with two woofers+tweeter to make up the 8ohms my amp likes.
so basically I just want to know what the majority thinks about using car speakers in a hifi application and if anyones done it and what the results were like.
I did a bit of a search and didnt come up with much that was usefull.
Member
Joined 2009
I'll tell you how to do EQ for free.
There is a free driver for the Audigy sound cards called "kx-project". It's better than the original drivers but it's best feature is the ability to configure your own choice of routing and processing for the sound on your computer.
Official kX Project Site -- News
The learning curve is a bit steep but the interface is pretty easy to use. Once you figure it out you will be able to set your EQ, route different outputs and even do active filters. The best part is that unlike VST plugins it will work for all your programs and you only have to configure it once. Also all processing is done on the board and the CPU is not doing any work.
There is a free driver for the Audigy sound cards called "kx-project". It's better than the original drivers but it's best feature is the ability to configure your own choice of routing and processing for the sound on your computer.
Official kX Project Site -- News
The learning curve is a bit steep but the interface is pretty easy to use. Once you figure it out you will be able to set your EQ, route different outputs and even do active filters. The best part is that unlike VST plugins it will work for all your programs and you only have to configure it once. Also all processing is done on the board and the CPU is not doing any work.
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