Hi all.
I have long been interested in making a high SD speaker as I have a feeling I would like the ease with which such a speaker would load the room and make details such as lips opening on a trumpet or every touch of the guitar string palpable.
My design goal is:
- "Normal" cost, i.e. not exotic drivers (thinking ~100USD per driver unless a very nice driver shows up at acceptable premium).
- "Book-shelf", i.e. not a short floor stander with 5 inch heels
. 20-35L maybe?
- Nice sensitivity
- Fair bass, but ~50-70hz would be fine as I probably would cross it to a sub.
- Probably closed cabinet to increase step response which should add even more to the "palpable" details.
- And most important... high SD driver, if possible as stiff and light as possible.
So my first question is: Does anyone know any large drivers that would suit the purpose?
I've looked at the Hivi F8, some of the 7 and 8 inch peerless drivers and the obsolete? red cone vifas, but is it too optimistic to cross such a large driver to a large dome tweeter or can beaming and breakup be avoided with the right mid bass driver?
Otherwise I'll have to settle for a 6.5" mid bass, but that takes away some of the fun of high SD unless it has very good specs (rigid, linear, low moving mass etc.)
For tweeter there are several large domes on my mind atm. I will dig up some links for you.
Any input is appreciated
I have long been interested in making a high SD speaker as I have a feeling I would like the ease with which such a speaker would load the room and make details such as lips opening on a trumpet or every touch of the guitar string palpable.
My design goal is:
- "Normal" cost, i.e. not exotic drivers (thinking ~100USD per driver unless a very nice driver shows up at acceptable premium).
- "Book-shelf", i.e. not a short floor stander with 5 inch heels
. 20-35L maybe?- Nice sensitivity
- Fair bass, but ~50-70hz would be fine as I probably would cross it to a sub.
- Probably closed cabinet to increase step response which should add even more to the "palpable" details
.- And most important... high SD driver, if possible as stiff and light as possible.
So my first question is: Does anyone know any large drivers that would suit the purpose?
I've looked at the Hivi F8, some of the 7 and 8 inch peerless drivers and the obsolete? red cone vifas, but is it too optimistic to cross such a large driver to a large dome tweeter or can beaming and breakup be avoided with the right mid bass driver?
Otherwise I'll have to settle for a 6.5" mid bass, but that takes away some of the fun of high SD unless it has very good specs (rigid, linear, low moving mass etc.)
For tweeter there are several large domes on my mind atm. I will dig up some links for you.
Any input is appreciated
ive been trying to plan something similar, but decided and 8inch driver was to big to cross to a 1inch dome. Given that most 34mm domes ive seen arent spectacular, ive been limited to a 5-6 inch woofer. The biggest issue is that the requirements are opposing. Lightest of cones wont be the stiffest and many drivers that are reasonable in closed box arent as sensitive. Eg i could make a bookshelf with audax hm130zo/hm130z10 vented at 2/4 litres respectively. Only 5inch driver though. But the mms is exceptionally low for this size driver, i think 7 and 8 gram in each case. Maybe the 6 or 8incher may be worth a look in your case?
Hi
10" + 1" ?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/195168-dynaco-clone-seas-exotic-t35-tweeter.html
A high sensitivity 8"
H1471-08 CA22RNY
I've been thinking of something like this but it won't be a dome tweeter. I plan to use my JBL2425 loaded with the JBL2342 Bi-Radial Horn. Woofer is either an 8" Peerless HDS 830869 Nomex or a 10" Seas CA26RE4X. Crossover between 1,200 - 1,500Hz.
Yes, I agree. Forget the little dome tweeter and get a nice high quality compression driver and matching horn. According to what I've read, if you want a big woofer, you have to cross it over lower for good sound.
I built a two way with:
B&C 8NDL51 (vented in 0.4 cu ft box tuned to 72Hz)
B&C DE250 compression driver
B&C ME20 horn
passive crossover @ 1.6 KHz.
I intend to use a subwoofer so no big deal on not going really low here (-3dB @ about 72 Hz). Sensitivity is about 94dB.
Member
Joined 2009
This is from the "olden days" but there used to be many commercial manufacturers that sold 8" 2-ways with dome tweeters who tried to deal with that configuration's problems.* In this specific case, an eight inch woofer in a sealed enclosure + an inverted dome tweeter - equipped with a 20oz magnet! - crossed over relatively low, in this case way down at 1,800Hz. The following variation is one of many sold by Genesis: Model 1+ (the guy who runs that site used to work for Genesis).
And I know that for awhile, KEF used a two inch dome tweeter in their Model 105, which helped produce great stereo imaging because it was so directional but also produced a "head in a clamp" effect many people didn't particularly enjoy (an LED mounted in a tunnel near the tweeter aided the owner as far as aiming the speaker in the right direction).
* actually, such a design is shared by the front mains in my own system, a multichannel system to be exact: a pair of cherry finish Boston Acoustic CR9s bought new by yours truly in 1998
And I know that for awhile, KEF used a two inch dome tweeter in their Model 105, which helped produce great stereo imaging because it was so directional but also produced a "head in a clamp" effect many people didn't particularly enjoy (an LED mounted in a tunnel near the tweeter aided the owner as far as aiming the speaker in the right direction).
* actually, such a design is shared by the front mains in my own system, a multichannel system to be exact: a pair of cherry finish Boston Acoustic CR9s bought new by yours truly in 1998
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Not a Bookshelf but still a 2-way
The Altec CD912-8A Duplex is a very unusual speaker. A 12" Coaxial with a Dome Tweeter crossed at 1,500Hz (12dB/oct). And that's a pretty big dome, definitely more than 1 inch.
They are quite good for PA use. In fact, excellent as ceiling speakers in live voice announcements.
A bit "rough" for Hi-Fi though. Tweeter is a bit peaky at certain places. With a bit of equalization, I am sure it can sound quite good. Have 4 of these in mint condition waiting for me to work on them. Just never found the time.
The Altec CD912-8A Duplex is a very unusual speaker. A 12" Coaxial with a Dome Tweeter crossed at 1,500Hz (12dB/oct). And that's a pretty big dome, definitely more than 1 inch.
They are quite good for PA use. In fact, excellent as ceiling speakers in live voice announcements.
A bit "rough" for Hi-Fi though. Tweeter is a bit peaky at certain places. With a bit of equalization, I am sure it can sound quite good. Have 4 of these in mint condition waiting for me to work on them. Just never found the time.
Attachments
Another good kit. one thing is clear, you either need a waveguided dome or something with more controlled polar response than a dome
How about this?
Take a look at this design from MarkK. It uses an 8" RS225 with an RS28 tweeter, crossing at either 1.2 or 1.4 kHz depending on which crossover version you use, and is a sealed design that's a true bookshelf.
Dayton Reference RS225
Paul
Take a look at this design from MarkK. It uses an 8" RS225 with an RS28 tweeter, crossing at either 1.2 or 1.4 kHz depending on which crossover version you use, and is a sealed design that's a true bookshelf.
Dayton Reference RS225
Paul
Hi again all.
Thank you for all you replies. I've been reading them with great interest.
The dynaco looks interesting, but the many statements about people making these due to nostalgia and would not use them as primary speakers turns me off a bit? The seas might make it to the list, thank you.
Yes that Peerless nomex looks good on paper and peerless usually isn't that far off IRL. IDK about horns, I mentally tie them to dance club and PA and not to HiFi, but I might have the wrong perception?
Same question again as above. Are compression drivers "good enough" for normal living room HiFi? I have little experience with these.
That actually looks alot like what I was looking to build. Would there be any benefit from changing the tweeter to something else (H1318-06 29TFF/W)?
H1318-06 29TFF/W
Vs.
H1499-06 27TBCD/GB-DXT
The Fs is lightly higher and moving mass too, but it has a larger piston area and what seem to be a much smoother FR.
Interesting driver. I'll look into it.
Besides from the fact that the speaker isn't that appealing looking I would also think that 3K quite high and too high for most 8's. A steep order filter might make it work, but why not cross lower? Wouldn't that make beaming less likely too?
I know the RS series and like them alot, but they are too ineffecient for this project.
There are some Hivi F8 projects, but many time the peak in the FR shows on the final sweep, so maybe I should leave this driver alone.
On paper this looks good, FR wise (haven't looked into optimal volume), but the price suggests otherwise. Silver Flute W20RC38-08, 8" Wool Cone: Madisound Speaker Store
Does anyone know this driver?
Thank you for all you replies. I've been reading them with great interest.
The dynaco looks interesting, but the many statements about people making these due to nostalgia and would not use them as primary speakers turns me off a bit? The seas might make it to the list, thank you.
Yes that Peerless nomex looks good on paper and peerless usually isn't that far off IRL. IDK about horns, I mentally tie them to dance club and PA and not to HiFi, but I might have the wrong perception?
Same question again as above. Are compression drivers "good enough" for normal living room HiFi? I have little experience with these.
That actually looks alot like what I was looking to build. Would there be any benefit from changing the tweeter to something else (H1318-06 29TFF/W)?
H1318-06 29TFF/W
Vs.
H1499-06 27TBCD/GB-DXT
The Fs is lightly higher and moving mass too, but it has a larger piston area and what seem to be a much smoother FR.
Interesting driver. I'll look into it.
Besides from the fact that the speaker isn't that appealing looking I would also think that 3K quite high and too high for most 8's. A steep order filter might make it work, but why not cross lower? Wouldn't that make beaming less likely too?
I know the RS series and like them alot, but they are too ineffecient for this project.
There are some Hivi F8 projects, but many time the peak in the FR shows on the final sweep, so maybe I should leave this driver alone.
On paper this looks good, FR wise (haven't looked into optimal volume), but the price suggests otherwise. Silver Flute W20RC38-08, 8" Wool Cone: Madisound Speaker Store
Does anyone know this driver?
Just wanted to say that we're building them to fit the role as primary speakers. Even if they are a bit on the large side, the will do a great job as "book-shelf" speakers, especially due to the fact that they use an aperiodic vent.
Hi !
Some of them, yes ! I don't listen to compression a lot but i heard one which works very well, i don't have its reference.
It could an interesting to use a compression, but a good compromise could be a tweeter + waveguide.
This troëls project could be a good staring point ? 8" +1"WG
Some of them, yes ! I don't listen to compression a lot but i heard one which works very well, i don't have its reference.
It could an interesting to use a compression, but a good compromise could be a tweeter + waveguide.
This troëls project could be a good staring point ? 8" +1"WG
Oh, good horns are the cat's meow! There is an entire sub-culture of horn enthusiasts in high end hifi.
The B&C DE250 is generally highly regarded. Also, I have read that compression drivers that do not use titanium or aluminum diaphragms generally sound better. There are other good sounding compression drivers out there.
Member
Joined 2009
The ER18DXT is not a conventional bookshelf and if you try to change it you risk ending up with something that sounds worse. This a narrowing constant directivity design, similar in concept to the Geddes speakers. Make note on how the narrowing directivity of the woofer at the crossover point is perfectly mated to the waveguide dispersion pattern of the tweeter. Horizontal constant directivity is often overlooked in conventional designs but it's known to be instrumental in achieving a convincing stereo image and correct perceived tonal balance.
P.S. I've never built it or listened to it but it looks great on paper.
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