Greg,
Good to hear the NS3 has a clean sound--it looks good on your RTA in the 400 to 4KHz range I'm interested in. I thought of that with the arrayed NS3 $1.50 units as mids--that opens up using larger woofers. Since I already have the boxes built--they are around 2 cubic feet and have the 5" woofers, I'll just do the tweeter array outside the box and the woofs/mids inside. Running a 0.4 cu ft sealed/stuffed enclosure for the 3" mids will cut the woofer space available to 1.5 cubic feet, the combined Vas of the Sony 5 inchers is 1.68 cu ft--I'm good.
Looked at the NS5.25's, when buying 30 or more--$2 each? Not bad and quite efficient but I went with the Sony 5's for the grill for protection (garage speakers),the poly coating to protect them and Vas of 0.14 cu ft. The 3mm of Xmax is decent for a 5 inch and the Aurasounds were not rated. The Aurasound 3 inch mids will get a plastic screen with speaker fabric to protect them--they will rest on the rim.
Parts Express has some $5 closeouts on 8" woofers--they are loud at 91dB but require quite a large box and only have 2mm of Xmax. Eight per side would really get things moving though--always an option.
Never thought I'd build a 3-way speaker using 50 cent tweeters, $1.50 3" mids and $2.50 5" woofers--the Black Friday Array?
I considered that. Actually, the cheapest MCM 8 and 10" woofers appear to be better drivers, and they're nearly as cheap. Larger motor structures, vented cap/coil. Low X-max, but the 8"'s 3mm is probably plenty for a line array given the surface area.
Greg
True, but considering the bass don't function as one, all that curved space behind your boxes could be used for a PA type 15"? Maybe a 24dB/Oct filter at 250Hz could get the efficiency to match the 14 three-inch full ranges?
My boxes are built so using the dozen 5" woofers is my reality--gives me an excuse to build a 18Hz to 70Hz tapped horn for bass support.
That should keep the big hits away from the 5 inch woofers but allow for the very tight bass response I get out of the dozen in the sealed box. Those 3 inch mids are my Christmas present--build starts in January so I'm hoping for warm weather.... the first outdoor party/BBQ is on St. Patricks day so I want the 3-way arrays to be ready to go. The 4th of July party will host a 12" tapped horn...I find it entertaining to make party speakers as arrays, educational and no worries from the brandy snifter set--that is what the Infinities are for....
Been lurking (is that the right word?) here for a while. Fantastic thread! Talk about motivation, I just ordered a couple hundred of the 3" and 5.25" Aura drivers, as well as a couple hundred of the "Audax Jr." tweeters. I'm so ready to play! Not sure which will sound better, but we will find out soon! My intended use is for PA, so they'll be modular in 3' sections for portability's sake. Likely as not, they'll be used in 9'-12' stacks. (I just have to devise a clever method for attaching them.) I have a dBX Driverack to manipulate them and tie them in with several BFM T24 subs.
Can I ask you guys a question? What happens when you introduce a second line of woofers, a-la Selah's "Symmetrica" lines? Or perhaps in the monocor style with the woofers side by side, as opposed to being divided by the tweeter line? Also, what enclosure volumes are idea for these two woofers?
WR
Can I ask you guys a question? What happens when you introduce a second line of woofers, a-la Selah's "Symmetrica" lines? Or perhaps in the monocor style with the woofers side by side, as opposed to being divided by the tweeter line? Also, what enclosure volumes are idea for these two woofers?
WR
I have aircraft grade ball lock pins available that could be used for connecting your individual cabinets together.
Tiny tweeters do not work well for PA line array, they can’t handle the power needed to overcome HF loss due to air absorption, as their sensitivity increases little compared to a long woofer line. The center to center spacing is too wide for the tweeters to actually function as a line at the upper frequencies.
At 100 feet a 10 dB boost is required at 15K (5 dB at 10K) to counteract HF air absorption.
PA use typically requires compression drivers on horns designed for the specific articulation required between cabinets. For a non curved array, you want horns that have virtually no vertical dispersion.
Peavey uses ribbon tweeters in their line array cabinets to avoid the complexity of the horn design, but ribbons require a high crossover point due to their very limited excursion capability.
Side by side woofers will create horizontal comb filtering when the center to center distance is much more than 1/4 wavelength of the upper frequencies reproduced.
With side by side 5.25” drivers, a crossover as high as 2550 Hz or so should not be a problem.
Art Welter
Some guys have found a pole in the sub raising the top cabinet high and angled down works well for DJ work as you describe.
Two 3" drivers side by side will not be much more directional than one at 4500 Hz.
That said, it would be a good idea to try a pair at various angles to attempt to match the HF dispersion at the desired crossover frequency.
You may also find a center row of tweeters with the woofers angled slightly out gives a more uniform dispersion pattern than side by side woofers with the tweeters outside.
The theoretical 3 dB drop per doubling of distance (the reason line arrays are popular) only applies if the waves are unimpeded.
Dancers will stand right in front of a line, as the interference pattern up close is the reason for the 3 dB (rather than 6 dB for point and shoot speakers) drop.
You will find that with a 4500 Hz crossover, the whole line should be above head level, whatever is below will be absorbed by dancers, rendering that portion of the line useless.
Have fun, good luck!
Art
WR,
Here is an interesting thread with frequency response graphs that compare a single Aura 3" full range to a line of 14 of them. From 400Hz to around 6 KHz, they have a more even response (flatter) than a single driver which increases about 6dB in the ~ 2KHz to 6 KHz range.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/180902-keele-line-array-bad-start-7.html
The RTA tells the story on page 7--very flat and manageable from 400Hz through the mid range and into the treble. I'm going for a crossover of 400 Hz and 4.3 KHz to the "Audax Jr." tweeter line.
Another guy built a set of arrays with 12 Foster 5" woofers and 48 of those 10mm dome tweeters. He measured them and they were good out to 10 KHz or so...but down -6dB at 16 KHz. The Audax has a natural rise in output of +3 dB from 5 KHz to 8KHz, holds it past 10KHz then returns to it's normal output level. That bump in the response helps get them past 10KHz The original Audax tweeter line tester preferred a more of a passive type speaker, he crossed a horn loaded ribbon to the tweeter line at 12 KHz.
So is your plan to use the 5.25" drivers for bass, 3" for mids and the little tweeters for your highs? 12 foot arrays is around 100 tweeters, 80 3" mids and around 50 to 55 5.25" speakers. A good way to spend the winter, cutting 460 to 470 speaker holes.
If you're going to use it for boom and sizzle DJ use--maybe a horn crossed at 12 KHz will give you the "sizzle" you lose or just bump the 16KHz band +6.
Here is an interesting thread with frequency response graphs that compare a single Aura 3" full range to a line of 14 of them. From 400Hz to around 6 KHz, they have a more even response (flatter) than a single driver which increases about 6dB in the ~ 2KHz to 6 KHz range.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/180902-keele-line-array-bad-start-7.html
The RTA tells the story on page 7--very flat and manageable from 400Hz through the mid range and into the treble. I'm going for a crossover of 400 Hz and 4.3 KHz to the "Audax Jr." tweeter line.
Another guy built a set of arrays with 12 Foster 5" woofers and 48 of those 10mm dome tweeters. He measured them and they were good out to 10 KHz or so...but down -6dB at 16 KHz. The Audax has a natural rise in output of +3 dB from 5 KHz to 8KHz, holds it past 10KHz then returns to it's normal output level. That bump in the response helps get them past 10KHz The original Audax tweeter line tester preferred a more of a passive type speaker, he crossed a horn loaded ribbon to the tweeter line at 12 KHz.
So is your plan to use the 5.25" drivers for bass, 3" for mids and the little tweeters for your highs? 12 foot arrays is around 100 tweeters, 80 3" mids and around 50 to 55 5.25" speakers. A good way to spend the winter, cutting 460 to 470 speaker holes.
If you're going to use it for boom and sizzle DJ use--maybe a horn crossed at 12 KHz will give you the "sizzle" you lose or just bump the 16KHz band +6.
Ah c'mon Art... if it's useless then why does it make you FEEL so good? When that happy couple are having their first dance, totally immersed by some gloriously overkill line sources... these are memories we're engineering here!
And I'm certainly interested in using a locking pin solution. I think angling the woofer lines outward is a good idea. I'll draw it up.Yeah, that wouldnt take much of a horn up that high. I guess I need to just get a couple to listen to. Not all boom and sizzle... grown ups like to dance, too ya know. - Regarding bumping the EQ, I just can't get myself to like the sound of a full-range driver playing full range. Maybe these are the exception. We will see. Cutting the holes is no problem - I sub it out to an NC guy. Mostly because I really want to get to the fun parts.
One other thing. I saw in the Foster thread from where horn-loading the line of tweeters was suggested. Because that would be dead simple to accomplish if it has merit...
Guys, seriously, I'm blown away how generous you are with your time. Thank you.
WR
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I get out of playing around with the arrays to learn about the funky things--they make a entertaining (and imposing) party speaker for garage use.
Changing from a 5" woofer/Audax Jr. tweeter array to a 3-way with the Aurasound 3" mids. XO is 400 and 5,000 Hz and that will give decent vocals. The tweeter lines will be cut off the old baffle and attached to the side of the box so the 5" woofers and 3" mids can fit in the stock box.
As far as the tweeter lines go, I'm figuring how to get a super tweeter at approx sitting position to fill in the +10KHz band. The super tweeter will be installed at the center of the tweeter line and the Audax line above and below. The Audax tweeters are 93dB at 8 KHz so if I use a single cap at around 13 KHz on a 98dB super tweeter, it should be at approx the same volume as the Audax when it peaks at 8KHz. The cap should taper the output to match the Audax tweeters so I should be able to put it inside the line without messing up the response of the tweeter line. In theory
When standing, the over 10KHz response will fade out as the super tweeter goes off axis but not too bad--standing 2 meters away it should be OK for most music. For critical listening sitting down, the super tweeter will be on axis so no harm--no foul.
What started as a simple 2-way line array crossed at 4.3 KHz is turning into a much more complex 3-way line array with a super tweeter crossed at 400 Hz, 5,000 Hz and 13,000 Hz. Eventually I'll add taped horn subs crossed at 70Hz to bring up the bottom end.
Looking forward to seeing a stack of Aurasound 5.25 and 3 inch speakers piled in with the Audax tweets and super tweeters--if you can get them to sound smooth--it should be a hit for DJ parties.
Changing from a 5" woofer/Audax Jr. tweeter array to a 3-way with the Aurasound 3" mids. XO is 400 and 5,000 Hz and that will give decent vocals. The tweeter lines will be cut off the old baffle and attached to the side of the box so the 5" woofers and 3" mids can fit in the stock box.
As far as the tweeter lines go, I'm figuring how to get a super tweeter at approx sitting position to fill in the +10KHz band. The super tweeter will be installed at the center of the tweeter line and the Audax line above and below. The Audax tweeters are 93dB at 8 KHz so if I use a single cap at around 13 KHz on a 98dB super tweeter, it should be at approx the same volume as the Audax when it peaks at 8KHz. The cap should taper the output to match the Audax tweeters so I should be able to put it inside the line without messing up the response of the tweeter line. In theory
When standing, the over 10KHz response will fade out as the super tweeter goes off axis but not too bad--standing 2 meters away it should be OK for most music. For critical listening sitting down, the super tweeter will be on axis so no harm--no foul.
What started as a simple 2-way line array crossed at 4.3 KHz is turning into a much more complex 3-way line array with a super tweeter crossed at 400 Hz, 5,000 Hz and 13,000 Hz. Eventually I'll add taped horn subs crossed at 70Hz to bring up the bottom end.
Looking forward to seeing a stack of Aurasound 5.25 and 3 inch speakers piled in with the Audax tweets and super tweeters--if you can get them to sound smooth--it should be a hit for DJ parties.
Wow, I took a 2 day break from this forum and you guys blew it up. Nice.
Actually, as of right now, WR may beat me to the punch in building this, so I'm psyched. One question though: why 5.25" for DJ use? Since Owen got away with 3", flat to 20 hz with a 3", I thought 5.25" was overkill. Of course, not for home use, but if you're crossing at 400-1000 hz, an 8, 10, or maybe even a 12" isn't too big. This way you wouldn't need subs. Looks like you have subs already though.
I think I mentioned this before, but when I was considering the modular design, I was considering using CNC knockdown furniture type posts and cam-lock fittings, maybe 10-12 on each surface. What I like about the cams is that they keep positive pressure between the two sections in order to transmit vibration from one section to the other (and ultimately the ground) and not rattle. How does one use the ball locks to do that?
I'm interested in the horned tweeter array as well. I own a router, although I doubt that it would be possible to get an exponential bit... Maybe some hand planing/sanding will be required. Also, you gain a bit of time alignment bringing the tweeters back to the horn throat.
Greg
Actually, as of right now, WR may beat me to the punch in building this, so I'm psyched. One question though: why 5.25" for DJ use? Since Owen got away with 3", flat to 20 hz with a 3", I thought 5.25" was overkill. Of course, not for home use, but if you're crossing at 400-1000 hz, an 8, 10, or maybe even a 12" isn't too big. This way you wouldn't need subs. Looks like you have subs already though.
I think I mentioned this before, but when I was considering the modular design, I was considering using CNC knockdown furniture type posts and cam-lock fittings, maybe 10-12 on each surface. What I like about the cams is that they keep positive pressure between the two sections in order to transmit vibration from one section to the other (and ultimately the ground) and not rattle. How does one use the ball locks to do that?
I'm interested in the horned tweeter array as well. I own a router, although I doubt that it would be possible to get an exponential bit... Maybe some hand planing/sanding will be required. Also, you gain a bit of time alignment bringing the tweeters back to the horn throat.
Greg
Greg,
I would assume (correct me if I'm wrong) he will probably cross the 5.25s to the 3 inchers at 500Hz or so to get their powering handling up? It would allow him to cross the subs down to 80 to 100Hz so makes a lot of sense as far as a PA speaker goes.
Mine are designed as a "home" speaker that can do mild PA if needed... the "party speaker" you could say. If I can get the mess to sound as good as a decent "home" music speaker--and have the output of a PA speaker then I call it good. I'm not there yet--have the big sound and they are loud, now to get them smooth and clean.
I would assume (correct me if I'm wrong) he will probably cross the 5.25s to the 3 inchers at 500Hz or so to get their powering handling up? It would allow him to cross the subs down to 80 to 100Hz so makes a lot of sense as far as a PA speaker goes.
Mine are designed as a "home" speaker that can do mild PA if needed... the "party speaker" you could say. If I can get the mess to sound as good as a decent "home" music speaker--and have the output of a PA speaker then I call it good. I'm not there yet--have the big sound and they are loud, now to get them smooth and clean.
As of now, I'm thinking either the 5 or the 3. Not both. Visual impact of the column is a major consideration. 'Been dwelling a lot on the melded piezo arrays, and so far, I gotta say it looks great. Easy to do, nice dispersion, power handling, etc. Now I'm wondering about the placement of the T line. Can I get away with floating it down the center of the W line(s), perhaps on a couple pieces of aluminum angle? Delay accommodations are assumed. What's the impact on the sound? I mean, that's blocking/diverting a lot of air there... or is it? Got the Audax Jrs. on hand. 'Expecting the rest of the drivers on Weds. Baffles will be done Tues. Waiting is a drag.
I am running 5 inchers and the Apex Jr. tweeters crossed at 4,300Hz...
Don't advise it--way too many issues with the mid range and the over 10KHz highs drop way off. Looking at the keele line array thread where adason is messing around with 14 of the Aurasound 3 inch full ranges--it shows a much better and smoother response. Look at page 7 for actual response graphs on a 1/3rd octave RTA.
Since they are for DJ/PA use, the 3 inchers look the best for arrays. Adason did the RTA is it looks smooth for the most part and he likes the sound. If you are determined to use the Apex tweeters--cross them at 5KHz with a 24dB/octave filter for protection. Running them down the center between the 3 inchers?--cut the "ears" off to cut width down from 2.25" (57mm) to 1.25" (32mm) to cut back beaming. Drill a hole, glue them in with RTV and done. You center to center distance would be 4.5" (115mm) or a frequency of 3KHz. Any beaming will start out of the vocal range and give a clearer sound.
If you don't have to use the Apex Jrs, run them up to 10KHz, adjust the EQ for it and put a super tweeter on the side pointed at the dance floor.
They will need bass support below 300Hz so make sure your bass bins will go that high...
If I wanted to build arrays out of all that stuff to look impressive AND sound good--I'd run the 3" FRs down the center, flanked by the 5.25" on either side and cross them at around 500Hz. Adjust the bass bins to suit the power handling and frequency response of the 5.25's then work on super tweeters to give the upper range and coverage.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I'm eager to hear how everything comes out with your project.
Don't advise it--way too many issues with the mid range and the over 10KHz highs drop way off. Looking at the keele line array thread where adason is messing around with 14 of the Aurasound 3 inch full ranges--it shows a much better and smoother response. Look at page 7 for actual response graphs on a 1/3rd octave RTA.
Since they are for DJ/PA use, the 3 inchers look the best for arrays. Adason did the RTA is it looks smooth for the most part and he likes the sound. If you are determined to use the Apex tweeters--cross them at 5KHz with a 24dB/octave filter for protection. Running them down the center between the 3 inchers?--cut the "ears" off to cut width down from 2.25" (57mm) to 1.25" (32mm) to cut back beaming. Drill a hole, glue them in with RTV and done. You center to center distance would be 4.5" (115mm) or a frequency of 3KHz. Any beaming will start out of the vocal range and give a clearer sound.
If you don't have to use the Apex Jrs, run them up to 10KHz, adjust the EQ for it and put a super tweeter on the side pointed at the dance floor.
They will need bass support below 300Hz so make sure your bass bins will go that high...
If I wanted to build arrays out of all that stuff to look impressive AND sound good--I'd run the 3" FRs down the center, flanked by the 5.25" on either side and cross them at around 500Hz. Adjust the bass bins to suit the power handling and frequency response of the 5.25's then work on super tweeters to give the upper range and coverage.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts and I'm eager to hear how everything comes out with your project.
18Hurts, are you running the NS525 ? I don't have to run the Apex tweeters, per-se.
I was even thinking of just the 3" lines, and popping one of these in every module for good measure. Lots of possibilities - just need to hear them. The reason I like the 525 is for the Sd. More than 2x that of the NS3. But if the 3s sound that much better, then a double line of them is where it'll likely go.
I was even thinking of just the 3" lines, and popping one of these in every module for good measure. Lots of possibilities - just need to hear them. The reason I like the 525 is for the Sd. More than 2x that of the NS3. But if the 3s sound that much better, then a double line of them is where it'll likely go.
I'm running the Parts Express close outs on the neodymium Sony 5" woofers. Their polypropylene coated cones and built-in grills were a better match for working in the garage. Not bad, they have 3mm of Xmax and I screwing around with them running without subwoofers at the moment. The frequency response of the Aurasound 5.25 woofers looks way too choppy above 2KHz for me. The plan is solving the array issues of mid range roll off is by bringing in 21 three-inch mids at 400Hz then crossing to the tweets at 5KHz.
As I said, if I was going to attempt to make arrays out of all those drivers you have, I'd run the 5.25 inches up one side and the 3 inchers down the other side. Adason did 14 of the 3" versions and they were decent all the way out to 12KHz. Run the 5.25 to 500Hz then cross them to the 3 inchers and again at 10KHz to a super tweeter to get the top octave. A 3 segment, 12 foot array could run 24 of the 5.25's and 60 of the 3". Each 4 foot segment could hold 8 woofers and 15 mids without too much problem. Stack the segments on the bass bins, add a horn tweeter between segments 1 & 2 for smaller rooms or 2 & 3 for huge rooms and you should be fine.
The width would be around 10 inches or 250mm wide--not sure if that is too large. The Apex Jr. tweeters look impressive with 48 of them in a 6 foot line but they do need help over 10KHz--just the nature of the array beast. Since you have a pile of 5" and 3", for best sound, I'd spend the time cutting to use those then cross them to a super tweeter at 8KHz. There will be beaming issues with the 3 inchers at over 4KHz but it won't be a major problem as they would start to comb at 8.5KHz--you could always cross the super tweeter at 8 KHz.
The simplest, smallest and lightest way to do it would be to use just the 3 inch speakers in columns and a super tweeter at 8KHz stuffed in one of the boxes. Cross the things at 400Hz to proper bass bins and EQ to taste.
Arrays are a tough build, regular speakers are easy! Adding a mid to a 2 way is simple--adding 21 of them to an array is not! Bass is easy to add to PA systems so error on the side of sound quality. Always the option to make a "bass stick" column out of those 5.25's... good luck and hope it works out well.
Depends on the wave guide of course, but if you are talking about a simple 90 degree angle guide, the low range of the driver will have a -6 dB level at 45 degree off axis.
This will result in a slight sensitivity gain around the crossover point, but up high, where the line of Audax Jrs is falling off in response, no gain will be realized as the response of the driver is already about -6 dB at 45 degrees off axis.
Are any of you guys having trouble implimenting the Aura 3" into J Bagby's X-over designer? Are any of you using that program?
In a 3-way, 300-6000 LR4-LR4 is not a narrow band for a midrange, but the filter curve that the program comes up with kills all curve flatness and brings a big bump around the driver's natural 4 db bump @2-3k. I can EQ that out, but why is that happening? Will that problem translate to the active or is that an artifact of the passive?
Greg
In a 3-way, 300-6000 LR4-LR4 is not a narrow band for a midrange, but the filter curve that the program comes up with kills all curve flatness and brings a big bump around the driver's natural 4 db bump @2-3k. I can EQ that out, but why is that happening? Will that problem translate to the active or is that an artifact of the passive?
Greg
