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Old 29th November 2011, 01:11 AM   #101
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Someone say Kappa 9's?

Infinity Kappa 9 Speakers

Probably a good idea.

Greg
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Old 29th November 2011, 04:35 AM   #102
18Hurts is offline 18Hurts  United States
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Originally Posted by gmcalabria View Post
18,
As for separate cabs for mids and woofers, I considering using the slice stack method previously introduced here. It would make breaking the unit down into smaller sections much easier, and I could irregularly shape the inside of the cabinet for internal reflections much easier.

As for 3-way, I've had no problems trying to integrate the NS3 as a mid (again, I'm talking about the $1.50 paper one). I thought it did very well, played pretty naturally and has a clear, a decent presence and detail to it. Then again, if I go that way, should I use an NS525 for the bass? Why not just step up to the NS6 or Focal 6.5"? I understand the Focal needs a large cab to move, even sealed (.75 ft^3 each driver), but it is cheaper (and possibly just a hair nicer) than the NS6.

Then, cost becomes a problem again. The NS6 isn't exactly a rich man's woofer, but it's expensive enough for 16 of them to push me towards the 5.25. I'm running a mid from possibly as low as 800+, then I might as well run a nice sized woofer and let the woofers take it a little easier on the bass notes. I do have a digital x-over, so I'll be running the bass boost trick that Owen is using. If 3"ers do it well, then 5.25"ers do it well, and maybe I'll save the NS6's for something a little grander, like a ribbon stack (or maybe that ESS Airmotion stack I'm dreaming of).

Greg
Greg,
Good to hear the NS3 has a clean sound--it looks good on your RTA in the 400 to 4KHz range I'm interested in. I thought of that with the arrayed NS3 $1.50 units as mids--that opens up using larger woofers. Since I already have the boxes built--they are around 2 cubic feet and have the 5" woofers, I'll just do the tweeter array outside the box and the woofs/mids inside. Running a 0.4 cu ft sealed/stuffed enclosure for the 3" mids will cut the woofer space available to 1.5 cubic feet, the combined Vas of the Sony 5 inchers is 1.68 cu ft--I'm good.

Looked at the NS5.25's, when buying 30 or more--$2 each? Not bad and quite efficient but I went with the Sony 5's for the grill for protection (garage speakers),the poly coating to protect them and Vas of 0.14 cu ft. The 3mm of Xmax is decent for a 5 inch and the Aurasounds were not rated. The Aurasound 3 inch mids will get a plastic screen with speaker fabric to protect them--they will rest on the rim.

Parts Express has some $5 closeouts on 8" woofers--they are loud at 91dB but require quite a large box and only have 2mm of Xmax. Eight per side would really get things moving though--always an option.

Never thought I'd build a 3-way speaker using 50 cent tweeters, $1.50 3" mids and $2.50 5" woofers--the Black Friday Array?
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Old 29th November 2011, 05:14 PM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
Greg,
Parts Express has some $5 closeouts on 8" woofers--they are loud at 91dB but require quite a large box and only have 2mm of Xmax. Eight per side would really get things moving though--always an option.
I considered that. Actually, the cheapest MCM 8 and 10" woofers appear to be better drivers, and they're nearly as cheap. Larger motor structures, vented cap/coil. Low X-max, but the 8"'s 3mm is probably plenty for a line array given the surface area.

Greg
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Old 29th November 2011, 10:26 PM   #104
18Hurts is offline 18Hurts  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gmcalabria View Post
I considered that. Actually, the cheapest MCM 8 and 10" woofers appear to be better drivers, and they're nearly as cheap. Larger motor structures, vented cap/coil. Low X-max, but the 8"'s 3mm is probably plenty for a line array given the surface area.

Greg
True, but considering the bass don't function as one, all that curved space behind your boxes could be used for a PA type 15"? Maybe a 24dB/Oct filter at 250Hz could get the efficiency to match the 14 three-inch full ranges?

My boxes are built so using the dozen 5" woofers is my reality--gives me an excuse to build a 18Hz to 70Hz tapped horn for bass support. That should keep the big hits away from the 5 inch woofers but allow for the very tight bass response I get out of the dozen in the sealed box.

Those 3 inch mids are my Christmas present--build starts in January so I'm hoping for warm weather.... the first outdoor party/BBQ is on St. Patricks day so I want the 3-way arrays to be ready to go. The 4th of July party will host a 12" tapped horn...I find it entertaining to make party speakers as arrays, educational and no worries from the brandy snifter set--that is what the Infinities are for....
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Old 1st December 2011, 08:29 PM   #105
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Been lurking (is that the right word?) here for a while. Fantastic thread! Talk about motivation, I just ordered a couple hundred of the 3" and 5.25" Aura drivers, as well as a couple hundred of the "Audax Jr." tweeters. I'm so ready to play! Not sure which will sound better, but we will find out soon! My intended use is for PA, so they'll be modular in 3' sections for portability's sake. Likely as not, they'll be used in 9'-12' stacks. (I just have to devise a clever method for attaching them.) I have a dBX Driverack to manipulate them and tie them in with several BFM T24 subs.

Can I ask you guys a question? What happens when you introduce a second line of woofers, a-la Selah's "Symmetrica" lines? Or perhaps in the monocor style with the woofers side by side, as opposed to being divided by the tweeter line? Also, what enclosure volumes are idea for these two woofers?

WR
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Old 1st December 2011, 09:48 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by WR Sugar View Post
Been lurking (is that the right word?) here for a while. Fantastic thread! Talk about motivation, I just ordered a couple hundred of the 3" and 5.25" Aura drivers, as well as a couple hundred of the "Audax Jr." tweeters. I'm so ready to play! Not sure which will sound better, but we will find out soon! My intended use is for PA, so they'll be modular in 3' sections for portability's sake. Likely as not, they'll be used in 9'-12' stacks. (I just have to devise a clever method for attaching them.) I have a dBX Driverack to manipulate them and tie them in with several BFM T24 subs.

Can I ask you guys a question? What happens when you introduce a second line of woofers, a-la Selah's "Symmetrica" lines? Or perhaps in the monocor style with the woofers side by side, as opposed to being divided by the tweeter line? Also, what enclosure volumes are idea for these two woofers?

WR
I have aircraft grade ball lock pins available that could be used for connecting your individual cabinets together.

Tiny tweeters do not work well for PA line array, they canít handle the power needed to overcome HF loss due to air absorption, as their sensitivity increases little compared to a long woofer line. The center to center spacing is too wide for the tweeters to actually function as a line at the upper frequencies.

At 100 feet a 10 dB boost is required at 15K (5 dB at 10K) to counteract HF air absorption.

PA use typically requires compression drivers on horns designed for the specific articulation required between cabinets. For a non curved array, you want horns that have virtually no vertical dispersion.
Peavey uses ribbon tweeters in their line array cabinets to avoid the complexity of the horn design, but ribbons require a high crossover point due to their very limited excursion capability.

Side by side woofers will create horizontal comb filtering when the center to center distance is much more than 1/4 wavelength of the upper frequencies reproduced.
With side by side 5.25Ē drivers, a crossover as high as 2550 Hz or so should not be a problem.

Art Welter
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Old 1st December 2011, 10:29 PM   #107
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Art - thank you.
I should say that these are for DJ type events. Indoors, less than 300 souls. So, with dual 3" drivers, XO should be around 4500? Using them side by side will make them much more directional, yes?
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Old 2nd December 2011, 12:05 AM   #108
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Originally Posted by WR Sugar View Post
Art - thank you.
I should say that these are for DJ type events. Indoors, less than 300 souls. So, with dual 3" drivers, XO should be around 4500? Using them side by side will make them much more directional, yes?
Some guys have found a pole in the sub raising the top cabinet high and angled down works well for DJ work as you describe.
Two 3" drivers side by side will not be much more directional than one at 4500 Hz.
That said, it would be a good idea to try a pair at various angles to attempt to match the HF dispersion at the desired crossover frequency.
You may also find a center row of tweeters with the woofers angled slightly out gives a more uniform dispersion pattern than side by side woofers with the tweeters outside.

The theoretical 3 dB drop per doubling of distance (the reason line arrays are popular) only applies if the waves are unimpeded.
Dancers will stand right in front of a line, as the interference pattern up close is the reason for the 3 dB (rather than 6 dB for point and shoot speakers) drop.
You will find that with a 4500 Hz crossover, the whole line should be above head level, whatever is below will be absorbed by dancers, rendering that portion of the line useless.

Have fun, good luck!

Art
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Old 2nd December 2011, 12:17 AM   #109
18Hurts is offline 18Hurts  United States
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WR,

Here is an interesting thread with frequency response graphs that compare a single Aura 3" full range to a line of 14 of them. From 400Hz to around 6 KHz, they have a more even response (flatter) than a single driver which increases about 6dB in the ~ 2KHz to 6 KHz range.

keele line array, bad start...

The RTA tells the story on page 7--very flat and manageable from 400Hz through the mid range and into the treble. I'm going for a crossover of 400 Hz and 4.3 KHz to the "Audax Jr." tweeter line.

Another guy built a set of arrays with 12 Foster 5" woofers and 48 of those 10mm dome tweeters. He measured them and they were good out to 10 KHz or so...but down -6dB at 16 KHz. The Audax has a natural rise in output of +3 dB from 5 KHz to 8KHz, holds it past 10KHz then returns to it's normal output level. That bump in the response helps get them past 10KHz The original Audax tweeter line tester preferred a more of a passive type speaker, he crossed a horn loaded ribbon to the tweeter line at 12 KHz.

So is your plan to use the 5.25" drivers for bass, 3" for mids and the little tweeters for your highs? 12 foot arrays is around 100 tweeters, 80 3" mids and around 50 to 55 5.25" speakers. A good way to spend the winter, cutting 460 to 470 speaker holes.

If you're going to use it for boom and sizzle DJ use--maybe a horn crossed at 12 KHz will give you the "sizzle" you lose or just bump the 16KHz band +6.
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Old 2nd December 2011, 07:03 AM   #110
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Originally Posted by weltersys View Post
whatever is below will be absorbed by dancers, rendering that portion of the line useless.
Ah c'mon Art... if it's useless then why does it make you FEEL so good? When that happy couple are having their first dance, totally immersed by some gloriously overkill line sources... these are memories we're engineering here! And I'm certainly interested in using a locking pin solution. I think angling the woofer lines outward is a good idea. I'll draw it up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
If you're going to use it for boom and sizzle DJ use--maybe a horn crossed at 12 KHz will give you the "sizzle" you lose or just bump the 16KHz band +6.
Yeah, that wouldnt take much of a horn up that high. I guess I need to just get a couple to listen to. Not all boom and sizzle... grown ups like to dance, too ya know. - Regarding bumping the EQ, I just can't get myself to like the sound of a full-range driver playing full range. Maybe these are the exception. We will see. Cutting the holes is no problem - I sub it out to an NC guy. Mostly because I really want to get to the fun parts.

One other thing. I saw in the Foster thread from where horn-loading the line of tweeters was suggested. Because that would be dead simple to accomplish if it has merit...

Guys, seriously, I'm blown away how generous you are with your time. Thank you.

WR

Last edited by WR Sugar; 2nd December 2011 at 07:12 AM.
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