Dave, I am not native english, i don't understand well the subtilities.
But how can you say new FRs can do 9 octaves (near) perfectly but they need a woofer ?
I understand the FAST concept. But when you put more than one drivers, it is a multiway speaker. You cannot say that "These FRs are capable of a coherency and an ability to keep the harmonics inside the envelope that no "typical" multiway with an XO has any hope of doing."
You will loose all the advantage of the FR ! no ?
I don't have any problem with FR although it is not my cup of tea. I played a lot with the Fostex 103E, very nice driver. But I think when you add more than a driver with a FR (a woofer, a tweeter), you have a multiway and you cannot talk about the benefits of FR driver. I have to be more purist than the purists
About the initial subject, if the problem is placement of the tweeter, you can also use coaxial drivers. SEAS produces 3 drivers. The top of the range : THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - E0051-04/06 C16N001/F See the Application Note
But how can you say new FRs can do 9 octaves (near) perfectly but they need a woofer ?
I understand the FAST concept. But when you put more than one drivers, it is a multiway speaker. You cannot say that "These FRs are capable of a coherency and an ability to keep the harmonics inside the envelope that no "typical" multiway with an XO has any hope of doing."
You will loose all the advantage of the FR ! no ?
I don't have any problem with FR although it is not my cup of tea. I played a lot with the Fostex 103E, very nice driver. But I think when you add more than a driver with a FR (a woofer, a tweeter), you have a multiway and you cannot talk about the benefits of FR driver. I have to be more purist than the purists
About the initial subject, if the problem is placement of the tweeter, you can also use coaxial drivers. SEAS produces 3 drivers. The top of the range : THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - E0051-04/06 C16N001/F See the Application Note
hi, just a point, MW guys in the FR forum would get slaughtered.
..actually I've never found that to be the case. And the fact is that many if not most of those "fullrange" designs utilize both a tweeter (eventually) and a bass driver. (..usually a super tweeter and an active sub.)
I think the difference is perspective.
"Glass half full." Fullrange participants tend to have a *very* low expectation because of know limitations in objective quality, and often wind-up with very high subjective quality in certain circumstances (usually at lower spl).
"Glass half empty." MW participants on the other hand tend to have higher expectations because of superior objective quality, that aren't often met (categorically) with respect to their subjective experience.
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I'm by no means an FR guy, I've always owned multi way speakers, and it was initially my plan to build one. However I believe that simple can be better, for me its just an opportunity left open.
I'm more of a "listen to what works" guy, ( not to sound politically correct ). I'd probably end up building all of em if I had infinite money.
I'm more of a "listen to what works" guy, ( not to sound politically correct ). I'd probably end up building all of em if I had infinite money.
Yea but of course you also have those fanatic purist guys that think there should be nothing between their speakers and their amplifier, of course you could add piezo tweeters, but I'd doubt that anyone would be willing to cloud the delicate sound of their hi-fi system with that.
Hi,
Don't post in the MY forum if you wan't to consider a FR approach, its tedious.
To get back on subject for a 20L 2-way you won't go far wrong with the Idunn.
I'm not remotely prepared to discuss how different this is to a FR + supertweeter
as an alleged 2 way, they are so different someone needs to do their homework.
rgds, sreten.
Don't post in the MY forum if you wan't to consider a FR approach, its tedious.
To get back on subject for a 20L 2-way you won't go far wrong with the Idunn.
I'm not remotely prepared to discuss how different this is to a FR + supertweeter
as an alleged 2 way, they are so different someone needs to do their homework.
rgds, sreten.
Yes, fullrange driver enthusiasts are often optimists.. as in: "I didn't expect much, but I'm hopeful that I'll have something decent". And it's often the case that they become rather enthusiastic with their results - at least initially, and tend to "improve" them over time - as in: "I'll make it even better". Of course that's not always the case, but it happens pretty often.
MW ardent(s) tend to be more pessimistic, as in: "The root of all failure is a poor design. Most designs suck so I'll make my own. I'll engineer it so that it cannot fail." Note that while there is ultimately a very high expectation, it is not born of *hope*, rather it's built-up conceit. In this example you start with the glass half-empty (or less).
I think a large part of this factors into the amount of time, effort, and money spent. Most who are into MW will spend a lot more on all 3 than an average fullrange enthusiast.
Personally I like both, and generally I believe a good proven MW design (both objectively and subjectively), will outperform most fullrange designs. But that's not to say that in certain instance that I might prefer aspects of a fullrange design (..even ones that aren't that great *overall* subjectively).
I also still think the OP would ultimately be more satisfied with one of Zaph's budget offerings..
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A FR can do 9 octaves but will lack slam & impact in the bass. Adding a woofer and relieving the FR of bass duties gives back the slam while loosing little of the FRs good points (and a gain in some ways not having to deal with excursion requirements of the LF). Where you XO is a trade-off of these strengths.
Technically a 2-way these still get lumped into the FR category.
A low XO is in a less sensitive part of the ear/brain system. With a low XO it is possible to get drivers with a large overlap allowing 1st order XOs and with driver spacing that maintains them within 1/4 wavelength making them essentially coincident. An ideal place for a series XO which, with its subtractive nature, compensates for driver impedance anomalies.
Put the bass driver near the baffle-step point with appropriate sensitivity and BS can be dealt with.
You have an XO, but with way fewer of the drawbacks of the XO on a typical cone + dome speaker. It is an XO, but it is much less evil.
dave
hi,
Whilst having no problem with the FR approach is just utterly dumb to
suggest it or entertain it when the word studio enters the equation.
The comprehensive answer to the original question is the Idunn IMO.
Advice was asked. It was given. Now talking drivel is tedious.
If you don't like it repost in the FR forum for a different answer.
rgds, sreten.
Sorry if I sound shirty, but I cannot stand change of scope posts ...
Whilst having no problem with the FR approach is just utterly dumb to
suggest it or entertain it when the word studio enters the equation.
The comprehensive answer to the original question is the Idunn IMO.
Advice was asked. It was given. Now talking drivel is tedious.
If you don't like it repost in the FR forum for a different answer.
rgds, sreten.
Sorry if I sound shirty, but I cannot stand change of scope posts ...
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no this thread should NOT die ! personally i found it very interesting .
this is the internet guys . there's nothing the matter with a spirited argument
just don't take things so personally . i've built a FR set , one of planet10's designs using marc audio drivers and they were ok on some stuff but all in all just ok . i expected better .
sooooo
cheers , Woody
I think you was clumsy. It could be interpret as a provocation.
Ok Dave, i understand, the perfect FR driver doesn't exist yet.
I am not an expert in fullrange but I know very well crossovers in MW systems. My only comment about the crossover (series or parallel) of a FAST if you want make a crossover as simple as possible. Acoustically the slopes are 12dB. Why ? The mid/treble slope is 6dB because of baffle step. Adding a capacitor add 6dB more, that gives 12dB slope. It means electrically the crossover is 12dB for the woofer and 6dB for the fullrange.
Otherwise if you really want 6dB acoustic slope, you must do a 0.5 : a 6dB electrical (only an inductor and possibly a RC impedance compensation) on the woofer and nothing on the fullrange.
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