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Old 8th November 2013, 04:35 PM   #831
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Thanks Markus;

Isn't it just amazing what a little leg work can do.
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Old 8th November 2013, 07:20 PM   #832
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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..ditch the forward firing mid and tweeter for an upward firing design with waveguide like Morrison Audio,
Here is the new Morrison Audio "waveguide"/"eggs" with much less diffraction.

..if only the little black "eggs" had "pink stars falling".


(..high-pass it around 400 Hz with a mid-bass driver line below that similar to the Boston Acoustic loudspeaker already mentioned.)
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Old 9th November 2013, 10:07 PM   #833
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Thanks Markus;

Isn't it just amazing what a little leg work can do.
but what's the point really??

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When speaker is held out in front of body standing about five feet from wall and speaker is pointing up, and slowly from waist height using pink noise, sound shifts from being perceived as coming entirely from speaker to cloud of sound perceived as blob of lower frequency noise in front of face with continuous cloud of noise of increasing frequency reaching upward toward ceiling. This is while looking forward. When head is tilted slightly back to look at junction of wall and ceiling, sound mostly is perceived as coming from boundary junction. Tilting head and looking at ceiling shift perception to sound mostly coming from ceiling. All this works with stereo music too. Truly spacey, unstable, and very unappealing.

No measurement tools required; no complex squirming of the brain trying to grasp concepts of acoustics, just a nice simple demonstration that is easy to do with any small speaker.
Oh yes, very nice ...but what such a setup has in common with any normal listening setup???

Besides I recommmend an 8 incher, not a 2 incher.

And still I don't know what You mean by "spacey".
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Old 9th November 2013, 10:09 PM   #834
graaf is offline graaf  Poland
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
Here is the new Morrison Audio "waveguide"/"eggs" with much less diffraction.

..if only the little black "eggs" had "pink stars falling".


(..high-pass it around 400 Hz with a mid-bass driver line below that similar to the Boston Acoustic loudspeaker already mentioned.)
What's the point of those those waveguides/eggs?

What is the frequency band these are effective for?
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Old 9th November 2013, 11:09 PM   #835
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Graaf;

The point of a little leg work was to get answers to questions that nobody could answer in clear and useful fashion.

Markus found a little exercise helpful too.
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Old 9th November 2013, 11:29 PM   #836
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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What's the point of those those waveguides/eggs?

What is the frequency band these are effective for?
-what you'd expect: improve horizontal dispersion where the driver's naturally start to become increasingly directive.

Probably in the range of 2-3 kHz for the mid-bass and around 8 to 10 kHz for the tweeter. (..I wouldn't be at all surprised if the mid-bass had no electrical low-pass filter - using some of that directivity/pressure loss as a "filter".)

It probably took a lot of designs/prototypes to get the freq. response he wanted for each driver.
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Old 10th November 2013, 08:44 AM   #837
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Originally Posted by Barleywater View Post
Markus found a little exercise helpful too.
But he didn't necessarily come to the same conclusions as Barleywater. Nevertheless, having an idea of how something works is one thing, properly testing the idea is another.
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Old 10th November 2013, 12:41 PM   #838
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Or any testing at all that may reveal sensitivity to changes of parameters.
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Old 10th November 2013, 08:43 PM   #839
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That's the problem with beliefs, they don't allow any change in thoughts or action.
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Old 1st December 2013, 11:31 PM   #840
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Default HighEmotion Audio

Brevity isn't always an option when you've become obsessed with figuring something out, as in my case. Perhaps I'm in good company on this forum? At some point in this thread, I think someone mentioned a design by HighEmotion Audio (HEA) @ Link. I'll comment on these loudspeakers because 1) they are omnis, 2) I'm obsessed with them, and 3) I have experience with them.

I've been on a quest to design a loudspeaker capable of reproducing this specific listening experience but to no avail. I'm currently considering a Pluto 2.1 however I'm concerned with the overall efficiency and ability to create "startling" transients from the perspective of ETC and combined phase/amplitude response. My journey into loudspeaker design started nearly two years ago--still much to learn and by no means am I claiming to be an expert at anything but how my brain interprets and experiences the effects of air vibrating upon my ear drums.

I am consulting this body of expertise to inquire if you think I've experienced something truly unique, or if you think most people generally have a similar experience with an omni-type loudspeaker that is superbly designed and properly implemented with the highest of quality drivers and low-distortion optimizing techniques (and decent sources and recordings)

These HEA designs have the Lineaum-like tweeter excepting its upgraded and optimized to the max with no apparent on or off-axis nulls. The material is some kind of mylar or actually, I think its Ultem PEI (polyetherimide).

I have personally heard these and was quite impressed with the omni-like performance. Actually, I was at RMAF several years back and heard everything--still, I was drawn back into the HighEmotion Audio room. I could be biased because I know the guy who makes these and I've been trying to get my hands on a pair yet they are currently in limited production. I may be nearing a point where this nice fellow lets me build out my own set using a list of supplier parts, instructions, and reference measurements. We'll see.

Speaking of measurements, I didn't have a concept of loudspeaker measuring when I had the opportunity to demo these loudspeakers--its really too bad, because if I had a complete set of measurements, it would be much easier to reproduce the measurements in one of my own designs or compare to similar types of designs, and thus reproduce the overall listening experience.

Let me describe this speaker's behavior as best I can. I hesitate to describe a subjective experience, however I'm a trained classical musician and orchestra conductor, so I have some point of reference when it comes to listening for (and sending?) "real and authentic" auditory cues in real time with a discriminating ear.

-Near omni radiation pattern, or super/hyper cardioid
-Midrange and vocals were as clear and "present" as I've ever experienced
-Transients (or my concept of them) were as fast and "authentic" as I've ever heard from a box loudspeaker. For instance, during a movie, the sound of a door being knocked on caused me to literally turn around and see if someone was at the door. My brain was totally fooled.
-Constant sound power across the bandwidth in vertical and horizontal planes
-Highly efficient and capable of "live sound" dynamics
-Every surface of the room seemed to be "energized" with sound
-An "addictive" listening experience, as the website claims, "a continuous source of first-impressions...". This may be the most dramatic aspect. When these loudspeakers were playing, it was nearly impossible to take my focus and attention away from the sound--not just music, whatever sonic information was coming out, voices, nature sounds, test tones, electronic sounds, etc.

These things convinced my ears and brain I was hearing the impossible--Bach Cello Suites sounding so apparent and undeniable, when I closed my eyes, I could imagine the resin particles flying off the bow hairs and hear the personality of the performer through the richness of the music. The cello wasn't just playing in the room, it transformed the room. Subjective descriptions, yes I understand the limitations.

I'm asking you to help me understand how and why, in the material, physical, acoustic measurements world, this experience was possible with this design, and not the many others out there that I've heard?

I've been in front of some amazing orchestras on the podium as a conductor--its the ultimate near-field listening experience. These loudspeakers helped me reconnect to what it feels like to be back on the podium. I'm obsessed with re-creating this experience in my own listening room. If I cannot build these exact loudspeakers, I want to build something that comes very close.

Are these subjective experiences I've had with this loudspeaker common to any well-designed omni-polar dispersion loudspeaker (that meets similar design criteria) or given what can be learned from my generally non-technical description, do you think there is something special about the HEA loudspeakers?

Cheers...
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