We're still not talking about the same perception. Spaciousness as defined in psychoacoustics is very real and nothing bad. Only reflections can add spaciousness. For example, studies have shown that reflections can improve speech intelligibility. Here's a good read - just in case you don't know it already: http://www.aes.org/e-lib/download.cfm?ID=13686&name=harman
I don't really consider myself prejudiced, I'm willing to try anything. In fact, I've got some glue drying in the garage on some cabinets I just made so that I have an experimentation platform for waveguides / reflectors / spheres so I can try some of the ideas that I've seen.
My only lingering issue with this whole mess is pretty simple. If we're going to tinker with psycho acoustics on the reproduction end, we should also be thinking about what we're doing on the recording and capture end.
Hi graaf, Seems to me that you are close to the truth in your last post. I am often puzzled by the unwillingness of some technical types to try even simple experiments because their minds are closed. In my own experience what is not supposed to work or to be any good often is surprisingly good. Are you still using the same fostex flooder? Any changes?
I can't find any pictures or information about this device, have you got a picture?
fortunately I posted some photos earlier (I can't find them now on my PC), here they are:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/162827-mpl-12.html#post2222633
the FE206s were later modified, this thread is inspired by/based on my experiments with them:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/126234-8-inches-paper-cone-treatments.html
with kids on board now I listen mostly on AKG 240M... but cats-and-kids resistant flooder is under development and to be announced
it is not going to be single way FR anymore though, most probably it will be 3-way
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fortunately I posted some photos earlier (I can't find them now on my PC), here they are:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/162827-mpl-12.html#post2222633
the FE206s were later modified, this thread is inspired by/based on my experiments with them:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full-range/126234-8-inches-paper-cone-treatments.html
with kids on board now I listen mostly on AKG 240M... but cats-and-kids resistant flooder is under development and to be announced
it is not going to be single way FR anymore though, most probably it will be 3-way
So, it's essentially an upward firing full range driver in a very short cabinet near the ground or is there some magic inside there?
no magic whatsoever, in it's basic form it was that simple, pure psychoacoustics
Nothing wrong with "spaciousness", I simply prefer not to add any more of it in the reproduction end than needed.
Early reflections can improve speech intelligibility, so can speaking through a honky horn, or adding mid range harmonic distortion.
When it comes to accurate reproduction, none of the above are helpful, but that certainly won't deter many from being fond of those sounds.
Well, that is certainly easy to try and I should have a working, albeit rudimentary prototype tomorrow.
It's going to be a 2 way because those are the spare drivers I have on hand at the moment, probably a little closer to some other pictures in that thread that show the small cube with the angled top.
Edit: like this one.
I'm very, very curious to do some A/B testing so that I can quantify what I think is happening versus what's happening scientifically.
Curse you Graaf, I'm going to have to move one of my couches!
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Careful of project creep!!! When I start something like that I'm pretty much resigned to the fact that SWMBO will have me rearranging the entire room - after I repaint it and add some new trim.
I think we are having context errors. "realistic" likely means different things to different people. "Spaciousness" or the lack of may be less ambiguous? I recently did a blog post on this subject to essentially sum up what I've learned about early reflection perception.
For a quick sum: less early reflections=better imaging; more early reflections=source broadening envelopment, spaciousness, and tonal aberrations.
More info:
audio blog: Binaural Hearing and Early Reflection Perception
Even more info:
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20110617/6079.pdf
Way more info:
http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/publibrary/Begault_2000_3d_Sound_Multimedia.pdf
Dan
For a quick sum: less early reflections=better imaging; more early reflections=source broadening envelopment, spaciousness, and tonal aberrations.
More info:
audio blog: Binaural Hearing and Early Reflection Perception
Even more info:
http://www.aes.org/tmpFiles/elib/20110617/6079.pdf
Way more info:
http://human-factors.arc.nasa.gov/publibrary/Begault_2000_3d_Sound_Multimedia.pdf
Dan
...and... simplifications
waaaa...aay more info:
Amazon.com: Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms eBook: Floyd Toole: Kindle Store
Too true Tinitus. he he
Sound reproduction does skimp a bit in the early reflection section though there's a lot on it! I think mostly b/c Dr. Toole is more concerned with preference. Nothing wrong with that and I should have thrown that into the more early reflections=preferred by the blind.
Dan
Sound reproduction does skimp a bit in the early reflection section though there's a lot on it! I think mostly b/c Dr. Toole is more concerned with preference. Nothing wrong with that and I should have thrown that into the more early reflections=preferred by the blind.
Dan
yeah, the Carlsson-like Audio Pro, actually Carlsson once offered a model very much like fostex flooder - the Sonab V1
unbiased listeners have no difficulty recognizing accurate sound reproduction, even with hearing damage or with hearing aids
what kind of test signals did they use in their tests of audible effects of reflections ? I bet it was not music
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