5 way horn speaker system project - tapped, bass, mids and tweeter passive active

You would be feeding the passive top and the bass portion through the DSP so there should be no difference in delay.
I am not that into minidsp yet, so how will this work? I can't see how you can dsp a passive XO in the program? I am probably missing something due to my superficial knowledge of minidsp. Care to explain? Sorry OT Speedysteve7, but this could maybe be of interest for your systemas well?
 
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Not at all - all disc around what might be an option for me is welcome...
miniDSP forum - have to look at that one too.

I am not that into minidsp yet, so how will this work? I can't see how you can dsp a passive XO in the program? I am probably missing something due to my superficial knowledge of minidsp. Care to explain? Sorry OT Speedysteve7, but this could maybe be of interest for your systemas well?
 
Played around with the L-pads some more. Very rewarding to try something and then realise it was not right and get back on track. I am pretty much there now and am happy with the sound both through the tube amp and T-amp for more casual listening.

Currently I have nothing on Tapped and Midbass, 9dB on the mid horn (JBL 2842), 12dB on the upper mid (JBL 2435) and 2 dB on the tweeter.

I will have some pals round again soon and one will bring a DEQX (Beringer I think) that will be interesting to see how some room EQ figures.
 
Been playing some more.
This time tweeter positioning.

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Now at ear height and with much more room to breath. I was aware that they were rather in the shadow of the upper mid and mid horn before.
This is a temp fixing - I might try them at the same height as the upper mid centre - would look better perhaps, but sound wise?...
Ideally they would be in-line with the other drivers I know, but I have no room for that at present - perhaps I will try it if I cut the upper mid horn down by about 1/3, but I still think room will be tight.
Handy the stands are just proto's as I can drill and fix at will and try what's best

You will also see (perhaps not so well in the photo) that all the drivers are perpendicular to the floor but still time aligned. Mr Coco was right to ask/question the way I had them angled before when he was over listening, as I have now listened extensively to both ways this way is preferable.
 
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That looks awesome, I wish I had the room for such a system!

Just to throw something else into the crossover discussion, a couple of DCX2496's could work pretty well I think, you could use one for the left channels and the other for the right, and they do sound pretty nice once you bypass the op-amps which is pretty easy to do. :)

If you go with a fully active crossover, tweaking is so easy to do...
 
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Thanks, it has been a fun project and I am enjoying the results a lot.
Active will be investigated - Have a 2496 visiting me so will try some room correction and perhaps just x/o on tapped to start with and see how / if that works.
Yes, there are tweeks for the DCX2496. A guy on Audiosmilie (Tenson) does them I think.
miniDSP reading / info gathering goes on and if bonus / job keeps going then perhaps a nice DEQX Express - would need to hear that one first though I think before committing.

More to come out of this system over time...

/Steve

That looks awesome, I wish I had the room for such a system!

Just to throw something else into the crossover discussion, a couple of DCX2496's could work pretty well I think, you could use one for the left channels and the other for the right, and they do sound pretty nice once you bypass the op-amps which is pretty easy to do. :)

If you go with a fully active crossover, tweaking is so easy to do...
 
not sure I posted this on here - can't find it anyway.
Here is what Mr Coco wrote about it when he and 2 other wammers were over to listen.
This was pre-zobel correcting, pre proper x/o layout and pre current alignment / positioning oh and the power amp was a little D-class T amp not the usual tube I prefer...

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"I was really looking forward to hearing these as this similar to what I plan to do with my own system.

I certainly wasn't disappointed. They sound absolutely effortless - you get a sense of incredible power, but completely under control. The tapped horn bass is like nothing you've ever heard before. It just pressurises the room and makes it feel like it's not even trying. Like distant thunder!

I felt there was a little colouration in the mid-upper bass where I suspected some unwanted overlap between drivers (Steve has started by using theoretical crossovers, based on nominal impedances). This was indeed borne out by some measuring (though it's pretty close, TBH), showing that some values need tweaking. Not a criticism as you need to start somewhere and just shows that you need to tweak to get the best. Additionally, we inverted phases between pair of drivers (2nd order crossovers introduce a 180 degree phase shift, so require that he drivers are inverted in phase relative to each other). This brought quite significant benefit, I felt.

All in all, I think with a little adjustment, this will be world class - certainly it's already amongst the best I've heard."
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Today's DIY has been moving the tweeters. I found that they can sit on top of the mid horn right at the very top and sound quite nice. So now they look like little animals peeping out at the top - actually works very well as the ceiling skieling / slight vaulting slopes up away from the tweeter.

I perceive I am getting better imaging on vocals / upper vocals now as the drivers are all in line - the voice is nicely hanging in the middle when it should is you get me.

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The other thing I did today was plumb in our external FM aerial cable to the music room. I have had a Denon Tuner since 1993 (was up in the loft for the last 13 years) but it is now belting out FM Radio of my choice with very good sig to noise ratio.
The tapped horns do very well 'coupling with the room' (as Mr Coco puts it), on pieces which feature a large scale organ or big drums etc - Jerusalem for example.
FM sounds better than Spotify streamed / compressed formats. But the Denon is perhaps only in the region of cheap and cheerful CDP really.

Next up some DEQX on the tapped and perhaps the midbass horns!
 
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Well peeps, This evenings experiments have been to add a 2nd pair of terminal posts to the crossover boxes and bi-amp.
One amp for the tapped and mid bass horns and one amp the for mid, upper mid and tweeter.
This means I could remove the L-pad on the mid horn altogether and just run a skinny 5dB pad on the uber efficient 2435Be's.
The dB delta between the amps is taken care of by the volume pots on each amp. I am using the TVC as the master volume.
Bear in mind this is using two T-amps. So nothing is final or perfect.

This was prep for the crossover boxes for the next test (some DEQX) and also see what L-pad reduction gives.

So for the latter what gives then? Well after getting the vol balance between bass horns and the rest there is an improvement in mid and upper clarity, no doubt about that. More punch and snap to snares for example too.
More interestingly there is better detail and speed to the bass. too. The bass line is punchier (starts and stops) by quite some margin. Slap bass on some of my modern'ish jazz sounds great.
No I'm no real fan of the T-amp but it does some amazing things for its efficiency and cost + I don't mind leaving them on pretty much all the time, so the system is always ready for me. One T-amp ran the PP tube amp fairly close as borne out by Paulf and voiceofthemysterions who were here a little while back. Two are more appealing than one...
There's more snap on all drivers now no question. One down side is the 104/5dB tweeter are not making much noise now... Need another amp or more efficient tweeters! Are there such things?
The tube amp is just a power amp so that could go on the tapped and mid bass but not on the mid and upper etc duty as no way to throttle it back that tad that is needed.

Ok, I am a long way from the final stop on this journey of course. I don't even want to get there too quickly - Speedysteve is chilled - yes as the sound I am getting is might good and I am savouring it.
I might end up with 1, 2 or 3 SET's or some DEQX in there or something else yet who knows! - but journey is great fun.

I am going to listen to the fireworks wav now to see how it sounds...
Danley Sound Labs - Technical Downloads
Gently does it at first. Wonder if the family will come in wondering what I am doing?
 
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You could well be right. My mid horn is crossing at 330Hz so playing on the 2nd order slope some way below that.
I also had the fun of putting some bass light tunes on (Rubber Soul) on last night on fairly low volume and wishing to hear the violin bass a bit more just tweaked up the bass amp a little - very satisfying. Perhaps not ultimate pure hifi but if it sounds good then I am all for it.

I think I am going to go for the miniDSP 2x8 kit as a present / toy to self cos' I've just had some good news.
A couple more T-amps too as cheap stop gap amps will be needed also.
I need a bit more research on the miniDSP / talk to them about upcomng developments and my application perhaps to feel comfortable about it. By it's not masses of money in hifi terms is it.

A word about the T-amps. When trying to drive any 'normal' speaker by normal I mean low efficiency they just are just hopeless IMO.
Even 15" Tannoy HPD's or Golds in GRF cabs - no dice when you needed some volume. Treble harsh, bass getting lighter.
However on 105dB+/W kit they really play quite nicely in a normal room at normal to even impressive vols.
As I have said I will probably not end up using them longer term but for now they are doing a good job.


Your description of improvements to the bass I would expect are the result of improvements to your midrange.
 
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just tweaked up the bass amp a little
There is this point around 100-300Hz or so where I find I can break away from the system level by a couple of dB or so without throwing the timbre out too far. It also sounds like you're using it as a 'loudness' control.

I think I am going to go for the miniDSP
Interesting. If you use it for both crossing and delaying, you can optimise your horns with regard to diffraction rather than time alignment.
 
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Yes good points, last evening it was used as a loudness control for light bass music and low vol listening. Interesting / pleasing effect.

Also good point about the DSP and diffraction. I can bring my tweeters & upper mid to the fore too. Lots of playtime there with delay etc.

I been searching for independent views and reviews on the miniDSP sound quality. Another option is the £2000 DEQX Express.
Be nice to back to back test those options:) dream on unless I buy them both.

My testing confirms L-pad free is the way to go, be it DSP or not.

There is this point around 100-300Hz or so where I find I can break away from the system level by a couple of dB or so without throwing the timbre out too far. It also sounds like you're using it as a 'loudness' control.


Interesting. If you use it for both crossing and delaying, you can optimise your horns with regard to diffraction rather than time alignment.
 
In the meantime...

Tried bi-amping and removing the L-pad on the JBL 2482's (mid horns), also means I can tun a 7 dB lower pad on the upper mid JBL2435's.
Wow - result. So clean and tuneful, crisp and unveiled. L-pads are the devils work just as Mr Coco advised.

Then I went on to tri-amping, One for the tapped horn, one for the mid bass and one for the upper three.
I am awaiting a fourth amp to enable 4 way and removal of the L-PAD on the upper mids... Much better to do the attenuation before amplification.

Was over at Mr Coco's last night. Listening to his RCA's on conicals and Vitavox S2's on a small Le Cleach - very nice indeede.
Talking he again mentioned the poss to chop down my upper mid conical horns.
So this morning the table saw was a buzzin'. All down. The result is really rather nice.

Mr Coco's off the cuff calc in his head were spot on, conical length / cutoff point is not an exact science.
Easy-peasy chopping them down with a table saw. 12 zapps true and in line and its done.;-)

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Screenshot_20231016_220321_com.google.android.apps.docs~2.jpg


Now with the tweeters moved down (back to the first incarnation of the tweeter stands I first made :) ).
Closer view

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Nicely time aligned and with the narrow dispersion properties of the tweeters (as we already discussed) it's working really well.
The original horn size was for down to ~500Hz with the right drivers. I am using 1250Hz crossover.
Things are gloriously focused together and toneful (is that a word)?

I love these small but fundamental incremental improvements - DIY is so worthwhile.

Everyone needs horns like these or at least hear them. - So effortless and right.

And hopefully still aways to go yet perhaps.
 
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Update on L-PAD removal.
I got yet another TA-2021 amp and plumbed in. I initially used the 2 bigger, beefier TA-2021's for the Tapped and mid bass horns, one TA-2020 for the mids and tweeters and one for the uppers.

Result was a sound I did not like at all. I could not get the integration between the mid and upper horns to sound right. Was nasal nasty.
No amount of vol pout twirling would resolve it.

I had wired the tweeter on the same feed as the mid horn (JBL2482), since they are more similar efficiencies and so I would get more tweet then if I wired it on the uber efficient upper horn (JBL2435).
So, what was going on. Was it that the L-pads were damping the clear cutting JBL2435Be sound (designed for sound re-inforcement / cutting through noise venues type thing)?
I tried the tweeter on the upper horn branch - still the same. So all I had done was take one TA-2021 driving mid / upper / tweet (config I liked) and put another amp in.
I checked all the cables, phases etc, all ok.
Then I started thinking about the driver impedances - perhaps it is a change in impedance seen by the amp thing? No harm in trying a few things.
I swapped the TA-2020 on the mid horn out for a TA-2021.

Rather strangely all came good. I was able to set the vols for each driver quickly (like when tri-amped) and get the sound I like (comparable to the 3 amp solution) but with what I perceive / shall describe as added clarity and go on the upper horn (exactly what I expected with the L-pad removal).
No nasties there between mid and upper, no nasal sound anywhere.

I listened for ages on all sorts of material confirm. All good.
Will re-visit this evening to confirm. so how much difference can there be between a TA-2021 and TA-2020? Oddly I prefer the TA-2020 on the Mid bass too but that could be the mid horn was struggling so much it was mucking up that integration too.
 
Foam to absorb stray HF reflections

Further performance upgrade

I put acoustic absorbing foam on the top surface of the mid bass horn, under surface of the mid horn and thick felt a top of the upper mid horn to try it out.
WOW! HF is even clearer, refined / just right sounding. It was good before - meven better now.
Goes louder with much more composure too. These HF drivers are stunningly good. Lovin' he bass to of course
Of course some (perhaps lots) of the reflected sound waves are stopped and that lets through the sound in a less interfered with manner.

Interestingly I had to throttle back on the tweeter and upper mid horn amp vol a tad - less cancellation I guess.

Now just to think of a way of doing it that looks nice. One way will be felt with a sympathetic colour speaker cloth covering it - could be made to look ok. BUT this kit is all about sound and a certain function over form:)

Here's how it looks now lashed up but sounding great. Can't see so much of it from the chair of course...

Screenshot_20231016_221047_com.google.android.apps.docs~2.jpg
 
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Speedysteve, it's great that you are going in this direction. You said it all when you said it can go louder. Geddes explained somewhere how this is the case that it is more audible with level. Any plans to try an absorber on your nearest wall?
 
Yes, the sound just became purer. Could even hear that in the ajoining room with the door open.

Side absorption would be possible with some appropriate screens/panels, could spoil the look of the room if not done sympathetically but it is a music room;)

I have tried absorption behind my listening position and did not find any improvement.
The horns are pointing inwards away from the walls and perhaps due to the nature of the conicals there is a lot less radiation than normal speakers.
Definitely worth lashing something up to test though at some point.


Speedysteve, it's great that you are going in this direction. You said it all when you said it can go louder. Geddes explained somewhere how this is the case that it is more audible with level. Any plans to try an absorber on your nearest wall?