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Old 14th February 2013, 07:53 PM   #161
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Here's a measure of the S2 on a 3uF cap

Click the image to open in full size.

The wise Cat tell no lies - Well actually, I bet he wishes his measurement at ear listening position on new diaphragm S2 and 3uF cap was as flat as that The S2 survival guide thread has been helpful. Just as he hoped.

Not sure where the up to 15KHz went though...

Last edited by Speedysteve7; 14th February 2013 at 08:16 PM.
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Old 17th February 2013, 06:36 PM   #162
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Today's experiment has been extending the 1st order passive X/O to the JBL 2482 mid drivers / horns. Just to see if less, gives more...
I now have
1st order on Raal tweets open at the top,
1st order S2 uppers, open at the top,
1st order JBL2482 mids slopes lower and top,
2nd order on the bass, slopes lower and top
4th order tapped sub, top slope only.

I have had the feeling the JBL2482 mids and when I tried the BMS4596 too, that they were not really doing much. Both were on 2nd order before.
Going 1st order they are certainly playing a lot more. I've just used a quick calc for the X/O components and there is a 5dB peak at 500Hz that needs addressing - getting more low end grunt out with a bigger cap / inductor would might more that peak lower to where it is needed - I'll try that later.
I've had to back off a tad on the upper driver pair vol and the mids a little too.
The overall 5 way freq response is as good as the 2nd order curves I have had.

There is a beguiling dynamic and tonal clarity when X/O components are removed. The path the signal has cannot get any simpler on these 3 upper drivers.

Listening is proving that there certainly is a new free and easy sound to things.
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Old 17th February 2013, 07:11 PM   #163
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After a few more calcs and few more uF's its sounding very sumptuous - Female vocals right now are the best I've heard.
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Old 17th February 2013, 08:57 PM   #164
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Interesting! Same conclusions about 1st orders here. But I've tried 1st order at 10k on my Raals (140-15D). I find that it lets them play too low and the ribbon character beloved of the hi-fi shows starts to appear...
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Old 17th February 2013, 10:05 PM   #165
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Would being active make any difference? I think I am using something like 4th order at ~3Khz on my dipole 140-15D AM. Perhaps I should investigate rolling off higher with less slope. Does it create a hole?
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Old 17th February 2013, 10:54 PM   #166
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Best to measure to see. If you use a calculator the impedance of your driver in circuit is probably not going to be exactly as quoted.

I roll my Raal lazy ribs in at around 12KHz.

I think it very much depends on what drivers what application and testing your way forward. When I was on the JBL2435Be's 2nd order worked very well.
Even when I tried DSP at 4th order I always came back to 2nd order for the most engaging sound.
Having got the Vitavox S2's on they have different properties and thrive on 1st order. The rest of the system had to be tested and evolve too.

Interestingly the bass has changed at bit too - harmonics probably but the JBL2482s are really pulling their weight not and making nice sounds.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Silent Screamer View Post
Would being active make any difference? I think I am using something like 4th order at ~3Khz on my dipole 140-15D AM. Perhaps I should investigate rolling off higher with less slope. Does it create a hole?
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Old 24th March 2013, 10:55 PM   #167
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Been very busy on the WAF DSP X/O board project.
Got one and built it to work.
There's a whole long thread on it here:
DSP Xover project (part 2)

Bit of beta testing but it works very well.
Absolutely hammers the Behringer DCX 2496 on sound quality. The input and output stages are so poor on the Behringer as to not even be worth considering in stock form in my system. Modding could get expensive - Simple caps on the output did little for me 7 it was so noisy. I also need 2 so digital input was not really possible.
WAF Najda was a welcome timely thing.

I've been amazed at the SQ of the unit. Really no discernible SQ diff to the passive X/O when just running the thing pass though mode.
Even ADC -> DSP -> DAC use it is good and transparent. I actually like the sound of the turntable though it!

Then I started loading up the X/O points and experimenting to get better sound out of the actual X/O points. The passive points really were pretty good. Not changed much there. I then on to DSP EQ and did a fair bit of work on the Tapped, Bass and Mid horns.
I also corrected the Vitavox S2's for as flat as possible but actually prefer them un-messed with. Great that you can just apply / remove on the fly having several set ups to compare...

Today, I moved the horns so they are more physically aligned, distance wise from the front, as opposed to time aligned.
I then set about time aligning them in Najda DSP X/O.

Here's how they look on the lashed up supports. Can be prettied later if the experiment works.

Front
Click the image to open in full size.

Side
Click the image to open in full size.

I am still having to time align the Raal Lazy ribbon tweeters physically as they are off the same line feed as the S2's. The Najda DSP only has 4 stereo channels, until the expansion board if completed. Hence they are much farther back than I would like...
However, this has brought the tweeters and especially the upper mid horns into free space. No reflections off the side of the tapped horns.

Alignment now done in DSP. I had to start out with a enough of a delay to allow the other horns to be slightly ahead of the tapped horns of course.
Having done it the other way around I knew the rough ball park figure of delay and added some. So, even the tapped horns are delayed a very slight amount in the digital domain.

Sounds a bit different. Less volume on the Upper mids if anything = less reflection addition I guess.

Last edited by Speedysteve7; 24th March 2013 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 25th March 2013, 02:13 AM   #168
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haha thats awesome
keep it up
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Old 29th March 2013, 05:15 PM   #169
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Thx it's a lot of fun.

I've experimented more with correction and definitely prefer the S2's sound with no digi correction.
I do find it nice on the 2482 mid horns and the bass and tapped subs.
More is necessary on the RH side in general - room I guess?

Next thing to try is to remove the Antimode DSP from the tapped horns and see what I can get measured / listening corrected flat in the Najda DSP X/O domain.

The Antimode is pretty clever measuring room echo etc and at diff vols. Be interesting to compare.

I've come down with manflu so will be done during an up period.
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Old 30th March 2013, 01:09 AM   #170
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Glad to hear the sand bags helped tune the midbass for you., big difference in your measurement with the smaller back chamber. Looking great!
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