Of course they will sound different; they have different T/S parameters. What a horn loaded driver sounds like does not change D. B. Keele's math for reactance annulling. A compression driver does not know it is a compression driver, and a cone driver does not know it is a cone driver. However, they are both governed by the same law of physics. I really don't understand what your disagreement is about, it doesn't make sense. I never said anything about sound; my response was regarding how low in frequency a compression driver should be used.
Another driver that models very flat like the JBL 2220A is the Altec 515-8GHP. Both are really good midbass horn drivers and can easily go out to 800Hz on a straight horn.
Here's the efficiency data modelled in Hornresp - I've not tried that before, or maybe I have and forgot it was there.
Hi Speedysteve7,
Remember that it is also possible to chart the efficiency, rather than just sampling it at a specific frequency
.Kind regards,
David
Attachments
Today's messing about has been to check and then re-optimise the lower 2 channels of the system.
By measuring in room and setting up the crossover points Tapped to Mid bass and mid bass to mid horns to suit the JBL2220's.
I like what I am measuring and hearing.
The 2220's are offering a bit more punch that I've not heard on the short horns before and are integrating very well with the tapped horns.
I am firmly on 4th order X/O's now for the bass channels. 2nd order for the upper mid bass knee and mids. Upper mids and tweets unchanged.
I did try a little higher X/O point (400Hz) 2220's to 2482's as suggested and that's how I've left it for evaluation.
Switching to the old setup shows its short comings.
By measuring in room and setting up the crossover points Tapped to Mid bass and mid bass to mid horns to suit the JBL2220's.
I like what I am measuring and hearing.
The 2220's are offering a bit more punch that I've not heard on the short horns before and are integrating very well with the tapped horns.
I am firmly on 4th order X/O's now for the bass channels. 2nd order for the upper mid bass knee and mids. Upper mids and tweets unchanged.
I did try a little higher X/O point (400Hz) 2220's to 2482's as suggested and that's how I've left it for evaluation.
Switching to the old setup shows its short comings.
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I will add my contribution/experience of JBL2482's crossed lowish. I have mine in some 200hz ish horns ( 68cm diameter JC profile) I cross mine at 300Hz with a 4th order with some Altec 414's. I have played with different crossing frequencies up to 800hz and prefer the attack of the lower.
I have also had cones in horns as well, Lowthers, Supravox's and Audax PR1700s as well as some Altec 410's in 140hz horns, which sounded best sans compression chamber, but are not as good as the compression driver overall. I also have some BMS CD's as well and the 4590 goes lower cleaner, but is not as good higher up. I measure distortion in Holmimpulse to get an idea of how low you can go.
I have also had cones in horns as well, Lowthers, Supravox's and Audax PR1700s as well as some Altec 410's in 140hz horns, which sounded best sans compression chamber, but are not as good as the compression driver overall. I also have some BMS CD's as well and the 4590 goes lower cleaner, but is not as good higher up. I measure distortion in Holmimpulse to get an idea of how low you can go.
Interesting stuff.
What sort of distortion level / value do you see as acceptable (rising to) as measured frequency falls?
I'll be testing some softwood (redwood pine) turned Tractrix 550Hz cutoff horns on the Vitavox S2's soon.
Be interesting to compare how they sound against my birch ply ones...
Romy has always said use as soft a wood as possible. Balsa would be too soft to even work - so went with pine.
Here's some pics of the turning.
1 section
2nd sectionl
Aligning to the template
I've got more pics on the big camera - must get around to uploading them. Windows phone and One drive auto upload is soooo convenient.
Be interesting to compare how they sound against my birch ply ones...
Romy has always said use as soft a wood as possible. Balsa would be too soft to even work - so went with pine.
Here's some pics of the turning.
1 section
2nd sectionl
Aligning to the template
I've got more pics on the big camera - must get around to uploading them. Windows phone and One drive auto upload is soooo convenient.
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that much have been rather heart breaking. I suppose re-bond and sand and they were OK again?I will choose spray filler to enable me to sand to a really smooth finish and then spray paint - like I did for the birch ply protos only even better
Not much.
I am firmly on the JBL2220 on short mid bass horns (as were). Sound fine.
Oh, I have ordered a WaveIO USB->I2S converter - the PCB is being made now and will be ready in a couple of weeks. This will go inside the Najda DAC-DSP-X/O box and take it's 5V supply from there. Keeping all connections short.
I will be able to stream 24/96 -192 files then. It is actually capable of 24/384, do such files exist?
I borrowed a 24/192 M2Tech USB->Coax converter and the difference with certain hi-res files was noticeable. That is not to say that 16/44 does not sound fine, just that hi-res files above 16/44 sound not so good when played on my current converter! The down sampling done is impacting the SQ.
So lets see what I2S brings to the party!
How about you - new stuff?
I am firmly on the JBL2220 on short mid bass horns (as were). Sound fine.
Oh, I have ordered a WaveIO USB->I2S converter - the PCB is being made now and will be ready in a couple of weeks. This will go inside the Najda DAC-DSP-X/O box and take it's 5V supply from there. Keeping all connections short.
I will be able to stream 24/96 -192 files then. It is actually capable of 24/384, do such files exist?
I borrowed a 24/192 M2Tech USB->Coax converter and the difference with certain hi-res files was noticeable. That is not to say that 16/44 does not sound fine, just that hi-res files above 16/44 sound not so good when played on my current converter! The down sampling done is impacting the SQ.
So lets see what I2S brings to the party!
How about you - new stuff?
I have had made your midbass horns and used JBL 2220H and I perfer now the Meyer 12" in a vented cabinet. 15" driiivers has no business above 150 Hz IMHO. Saves space too! 15" drivers were just a Hornresp dream.
https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net...=3d158a51d8a8fd121e4086bd1219bb98&oe=556BB604
https://scontent-a-fra.xx.fbcdn.net...=3d158a51d8a8fd121e4086bd1219bb98&oe=556BB604
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Onwards and upwards!
That's interesting Rewind
I'm gonna have to try 12" then, in an exponential / hyberbolic.
Agree that hornresp only tells you what the SPL / Hz might be and driver excursions etc. Not much about the actual sound quality.
I've played around and a nice throat adapter added to my existing horns to go from the larger throat to what I need for the 12" drivers and add the needed length too, is easily doable.
The mouth will be a little bit smaller than optimal, but not by much.
If I like the SQ then a couple of extra big rings would see the mouth sorted too!
So a couple of hours turning a pair of throat adapters and get me some nice 12" drivers and I'll be able to comment
Anything special about the Meyer 12"?
Luckily I ordered more birch ply for another project and so have plenty of offcuts to do this project...
That's interesting Rewind
I'm gonna have to try 12" then, in an exponential / hyberbolic.
Agree that hornresp only tells you what the SPL / Hz might be and driver excursions etc. Not much about the actual sound quality.
I've played around and a nice throat adapter added to my existing horns to go from the larger throat to what I need for the 12" drivers and add the needed length too, is easily doable.
The mouth will be a little bit smaller than optimal, but not by much.
If I like the SQ then a couple of extra big rings would see the mouth sorted too!
So a couple of hours turning a pair of throat adapters and get me some nice 12" drivers and I'll be able to comment
Anything special about the Meyer 12"?
Luckily I ordered more birch ply for another project and so have plenty of offcuts to do this project...
Yesterday we visited a hifi shop that sells surprisingly many 50000 euro speakers. We listened to the Tannoy Canterbury SE with Tannoy's famous 15" coaxial driver.
Tannoy Canterbury SE Photo by ozzi-photo | Photobucket
http://i0.wp.com/jeffsplace.me/word...-behind-listening-position.jpg?resize=695,438
The idea of using a 15" in the midrange has been explored for decades by Tannoy. If anyone has the potential to make a great 15" midrange driver is Tannoy.
The seller told me the driver is the same as in their more complex horn speaker: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SoPo2yR5K...dYOM/s1600/Tannoy+Westminster+Royal+3blog.jpg
It sounded better than the JBL 2220 15" in a horn, but it was struggling in the mids and had rather limited bass, so the Tannoy driver is really made for midbass and mids, not bass, yet it fails at this and sound pretty gnarly. I now feel confident to dismiss the idea of using 15" drivers highpassed around 400Hz. They will not reach the sound quality of a 12" midbass, especially if you combine this with something like a Saba Greencone 8" for mids. http://members.aon.at/peter-hifi/fertige_bilder/Saba.jpg
The Saba can have its bad days too. If the Saba Greencone sometimes overly excited sound can remind me of a bee-hive, the Tannoy 15" was more like an exhaust pipe of a Husqvarna motocross.
Going for even smaller midbass drivers, like with the Linn Exakt 350 which uses 6.5" for upper bass and two 8" drivers sub, that I heard the other day, is missing the relaxed feeling of the Meyer 12". Those 6.5" and 8" drivers need to work hard to produce the same sound a 12" midbass would do in its sleep, with its pinky.
Back to the Tannoy Canterbury SE. Treble was smooth. Seller said he preferred it over the other expensive JBL speakers he had. I understand why since JBL insist on using titanium diaphragms even for hifi speakers. And their woofers are made for bass but not much more. He said JBL has a good party factor, but lack in finesse.
My girlfriend confirmed that we have better sound at home (Beyma TPL-150, Saba Greencone 8", and with the Meyer 12" in a ported box filling up the midbass in a discrete way. You don't really notice the Meyer 12" but you notice it when it is gone. No face-slapping snappy kick drum, like the JBL 2220H in a horn - more of a mellow "burrr". I am sure Meyer used a coating or some other design feature that works as a highpass filter. I only need a 1st order highpass and I get almost no nasty treble.
I tried the Meyer 12" in the same horn as the JBL 2220 with the 12 liter sealed bak chamber, and it did not work so good. It i possible I need a larger back chamber. And a smaller throat. And a longer horn. I.e. a new 60kg horn. :S
I don't think there is anything special with the Meyer 12". You should be able to find similar drivers, unless you have to have certain model for historical reasons.
Yesterday I reconed a JBL E-120, a popular guitar driver and recently popular for PA and hifi. Beyma even made a tribute driver for it called Beyma Liberty. I have been listening to it for a few hours now and it really has potential as a midbass driver, but not so much for mids. I have not added the aluminum dust cap yet, because when I added one to a JBL 2202 12" I noticed how the sound became more dead (due to the rigidity of the metal dust cap?) and some ringing metal sound. I may keep it as it is, without a dust cap.
The E-120 is an old driver with its own sound. It will be fun to try to use it in a horn or cabinet. The plan was to use it for the electric guitar, since the Meyer 12" are doing such a nice job already.
The search goes on!
Tannoy Canterbury SE Photo by ozzi-photo | Photobucket
http://i0.wp.com/jeffsplace.me/word...-behind-listening-position.jpg?resize=695,438
The idea of using a 15" in the midrange has been explored for decades by Tannoy. If anyone has the potential to make a great 15" midrange driver is Tannoy.
The seller told me the driver is the same as in their more complex horn speaker: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-SoPo2yR5K...dYOM/s1600/Tannoy+Westminster+Royal+3blog.jpg
It sounded better than the JBL 2220 15" in a horn, but it was struggling in the mids and had rather limited bass, so the Tannoy driver is really made for midbass and mids, not bass, yet it fails at this and sound pretty gnarly. I now feel confident to dismiss the idea of using 15" drivers highpassed around 400Hz. They will not reach the sound quality of a 12" midbass, especially if you combine this with something like a Saba Greencone 8" for mids. http://members.aon.at/peter-hifi/fertige_bilder/Saba.jpg
The Saba can have its bad days too. If the Saba Greencone sometimes overly excited sound can remind me of a bee-hive, the Tannoy 15" was more like an exhaust pipe of a Husqvarna motocross.
Going for even smaller midbass drivers, like with the Linn Exakt 350 which uses 6.5" for upper bass and two 8" drivers sub, that I heard the other day, is missing the relaxed feeling of the Meyer 12". Those 6.5" and 8" drivers need to work hard to produce the same sound a 12" midbass would do in its sleep, with its pinky.
Back to the Tannoy Canterbury SE. Treble was smooth. Seller said he preferred it over the other expensive JBL speakers he had. I understand why since JBL insist on using titanium diaphragms even for hifi speakers. And their woofers are made for bass but not much more. He said JBL has a good party factor, but lack in finesse.
My girlfriend confirmed that we have better sound at home (Beyma TPL-150, Saba Greencone 8", and with the Meyer 12" in a ported box filling up the midbass in a discrete way. You don't really notice the Meyer 12" but you notice it when it is gone. No face-slapping snappy kick drum, like the JBL 2220H in a horn - more of a mellow "burrr". I am sure Meyer used a coating or some other design feature that works as a highpass filter. I only need a 1st order highpass and I get almost no nasty treble.
I tried the Meyer 12" in the same horn as the JBL 2220 with the 12 liter sealed bak chamber, and it did not work so good. It i possible I need a larger back chamber. And a smaller throat. And a longer horn. I.e. a new 60kg horn. :S
I don't think there is anything special with the Meyer 12". You should be able to find similar drivers, unless you have to have certain model for historical reasons.
Yesterday I reconed a JBL E-120, a popular guitar driver and recently popular for PA and hifi. Beyma even made a tribute driver for it called Beyma Liberty. I have been listening to it for a few hours now and it really has potential as a midbass driver, but not so much for mids. I have not added the aluminum dust cap yet, because when I added one to a JBL 2202 12" I noticed how the sound became more dead (due to the rigidity of the metal dust cap?) and some ringing metal sound. I may keep it as it is, without a dust cap.
The E-120 is an old driver with its own sound. It will be fun to try to use it in a horn or cabinet. The plan was to use it for the electric guitar, since the Meyer 12" are doing such a nice job already.
The search goes on!
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The Saba can have its bad days too. If the Saba Greencone sometimes overly excited sound can remind me of a bee-hive, the Tannoy 15" was more like an exhaust pipe of a Husqvarna motocross.
Haha, maybe you should consider a new occupation as reviewer in a Hifi magazine
Peter
Ah, that's the thing, I like the rip of the 15" at 100hz to say 120hz or maybe more.
I might find a 12" loses there in dramatic affect.
The bass I have now from my combo is something a single 15" tannoy could only dream of imho, having listened to many tannoy variations from, GRFs to autographs to Westminsters.
I do eq them though
Yes, a 12" straight into my current mid bass horn would never work!
New throat / longer then it looks like it might. Gaining nicer 150hz to 300hz and losing any lower bass push would be a blow though...
I'm running my 2482s down pretty low at the moment...
I might find a 12" loses there in dramatic affect.
The bass I have now from my combo is something a single 15" tannoy could only dream of imho, having listened to many tannoy variations from, GRFs to autographs to Westminsters.
I do eq them though
Yes, a 12" straight into my current mid bass horn would never work!
New throat / longer then it looks like it might. Gaining nicer 150hz to 300hz and losing any lower bass push would be a blow though...
I'm running my 2482s down pretty low at the moment...
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Little update.
I had some mates round with big power amps. One a Behringer Inuke PA amp and the other a Chord super amp.
The Behringer on the tapped horns was a revelation. The grip and control and bang for buck was something to hear.
For me it did a better job than the £9K RRP big silicone Chord amp for the tapped horns.
Of course the Chord is designed to work very well 20-20000Hz. I only need 20-90Hz 4th order!
The Chord did a nice enough job on the mid bass, but not £8.85K better than the 60w Topping T-amp I was using
I might try other amps for mid bass in the future to see what's affordable and sounds better.
I bought the Behringer amp for tapped horn sub duties. Very happy with the sound.
I've slowed the industrial noise cooling fan using a 13.5ohm resistor. It's about as high a resistance as I can go and get the fan to start.
Noise is low and it still draws quite a bit of air over the PCB and out the front. So a good compromise at the moment.
I will play with fitting a temperature sensitive thermistor - getting a 10ohm one and can add a few ohms needed to get the right start speed. Hair dryer and infra red temp gun at the ready for testing...
I've also been making some adapters for Vitavox S2 and other horns for a fellow horn enthusiast and testing his 400Hz horns and some screw on adapter rings in brass - outer ring will be polished up when finished, Will also be faced off to 18mm thick so the horn throat contacts the driver.
Testing in my S2s.
I had some mates round with big power amps. One a Behringer Inuke PA amp and the other a Chord super amp.
The Behringer on the tapped horns was a revelation. The grip and control and bang for buck was something to hear.
For me it did a better job than the £9K RRP big silicone Chord amp for the tapped horns.
Of course the Chord is designed to work very well 20-20000Hz. I only need 20-90Hz 4th order!
The Chord did a nice enough job on the mid bass, but not £8.85K better than the 60w Topping T-amp I was using
I might try other amps for mid bass in the future to see what's affordable and sounds better.
I bought the Behringer amp for tapped horn sub duties. Very happy with the sound.
I've slowed the industrial noise cooling fan using a 13.5ohm resistor. It's about as high a resistance as I can go and get the fan to start.
Noise is low and it still draws quite a bit of air over the PCB and out the front. So a good compromise at the moment.
I will play with fitting a temperature sensitive thermistor - getting a 10ohm one and can add a few ohms needed to get the right start speed. Hair dryer and infra red temp gun at the ready for testing...
I've also been making some adapters for Vitavox S2 and other horns for a fellow horn enthusiast and testing his 400Hz horns and some screw on adapter rings in brass - outer ring will be polished up when finished, Will also be faced off to 18mm thick so the horn throat contacts the driver.
Testing in my S2s.
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