Yes the waveguides are I understand for the smaller Raal 140-15D’s.
I mounted then with a strip of foam rubber on the faces of the Raal’s and then a clamp system around the back of the tweeter mounting frame. This was 2 long threaded bars with a padded hook to grab the flange on the waveguide. You would simply bolt them on to the 140’s with say M3’s, as the holes would line up
For me they were just a test rig.
The Lazy’s actually stick out about 35mm each end beyond the slot. So not ideal – they were just a loan / test. The slight overlap beyond the mounting flange is damped / covered off.
In spite of this, measured at 1m they still improve the efficiency as can be seen.
The shape / flare of the waveguide is quite wide for there to be much horn load effect, I would have thought – but the measurements show what they show.
I have done some measurements at my ear point, and the efficient improvement with the room playing in virtually nothing! I must post those up.
However I do still perceived I can hear a difference to the sound they produce - it is a small improvement.
I need to do more on off listening to confirm this fully to myself / co-listener.
A full size Raal Lazy Ribbon sized waveguide would be pretty big to fit into my stack and the manufacturer will only make a batch of 10 – It would be hard to find 10 Lazy Ribbon owners, so that is not on the cards…
I mounted then with a strip of foam rubber on the faces of the Raal’s and then a clamp system around the back of the tweeter mounting frame. This was 2 long threaded bars with a padded hook to grab the flange on the waveguide. You would simply bolt them on to the 140’s with say M3’s, as the holes would line up
For me they were just a test rig.
The Lazy’s actually stick out about 35mm each end beyond the slot. So not ideal – they were just a loan / test. The slight overlap beyond the mounting flange is damped / covered off.
In spite of this, measured at 1m they still improve the efficiency as can be seen.
The shape / flare of the waveguide is quite wide for there to be much horn load effect, I would have thought – but the measurements show what they show.
I have done some measurements at my ear point, and the efficient improvement with the room playing in virtually nothing! I must post those up.
However I do still perceived I can hear a difference to the sound they produce - it is a small improvement.
I need to do more on off listening to confirm this fully to myself / co-listener.
A full size Raal Lazy Ribbon sized waveguide would be pretty big to fit into my stack and the manufacturer will only make a batch of 10 – It would be hard to find 10 Lazy Ribbon owners, so that is not on the cards…
Here's a pic of the new tractrix upper mid, in plenty of air as the spacing was for the larger conical...
Now having dropped the height by quite a bit
Only problem now is that the rack and the mid horns get together at the back and JBL2482 drivers on the mids are too far forward to allow time alignment. Yuck - not time aligned! I can't listen to it like that.
So, I have gone from the clamp on driver solution that required too much rear protrusion, to a flange arrangement in fibre glass with the drivers bolting on - more as usual. I should have done this from the very beginning I suppose. Ironic that I will prob have Tractrix horns to replace them in a few weeks but there we are. Can DIY, do DIY...
Will be cured tomorrow and in place and time-aligned
Then I will be able to access if lowing / compressing sounds better or not.
Now having dropped the height by quite a bit
Only problem now is that the rack and the mid horns get together at the back and JBL2482 drivers on the mids are too far forward to allow time alignment. Yuck - not time aligned! I can't listen to it like that.
So, I have gone from the clamp on driver solution that required too much rear protrusion, to a flange arrangement in fibre glass with the drivers bolting on - more as usual. I should have done this from the very beginning I suppose. Ironic that I will prob have Tractrix horns to replace them in a few weeks but there we are. Can DIY, do DIY...
Will be cured tomorrow and in place and time-aligned
Then I will be able to access if lowing / compressing sounds better or not.
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Thanks Frank.
The room is 5m long and I see long ways. So yes, a over 12ft to the drivers, but a bit closer to the mouth of the mid bass horn - it is ~3.7ft long in total.
Time alignment all cured and modded and everything measured and in place.
Sounds much better. I have learned to become critical of time alignment and the smearing esp. of the mid & high treble a lack of it brings.
Now to watch F1 SPA and a bit of listening / cycling / walking when not doing those things.
The room is 5m long and I see long ways. So yes, a over 12ft to the drivers, but a bit closer to the mouth of the mid bass horn - it is ~3.7ft long in total.
Time alignment all cured and modded and everything measured and in place.
Sounds much better. I have learned to become critical of time alignment and the smearing esp. of the mid & high treble a lack of it brings.
Now to watch F1 SPA and a bit of listening / cycling / walking when not doing those things.
Well, I lowered the stack as the upper horns are quite a bit smaller.
This produced a negative effect on the Raal Tweeter wave guides - I don't know why.
They measured pretty much the same - perhaps they could disperse in the same way...
I love the sound of the lower stack though.
Other news is that I got a pair of Tractrix 200Hz mid bass horns yesterday.
Mounted them up an am giving them a listen.
Here is how it all looks
Some have said you get "better dynamics in tractrix".
That's what I wanted to explore.
There is definitely more going on mid detail and that word, dynamics, again.
Violin and esp Viole de Gambe timbre is very fine.
Wide range organ pieces also very good. I always suspected some congestion of sound in the conical - esp mid range.
The 2482's sound superb to my ears. Mellow but interesting and alive enough.
Several vistors have commented on their qualities too.
Great for mid organ and piano, guitar, vocal etc.
Those organ chaps won't use anything else.
More listening needed.
This produced a negative effect on the Raal Tweeter wave guides - I don't know why.
They measured pretty much the same - perhaps they could disperse in the same way...
I love the sound of the lower stack though.
Other news is that I got a pair of Tractrix 200Hz mid bass horns yesterday.
Mounted them up an am giving them a listen.
Here is how it all looks
Some have said you get "better dynamics in tractrix".
That's what I wanted to explore.
There is definitely more going on mid detail and that word, dynamics, again.
Violin and esp Viole de Gambe timbre is very fine.
Wide range organ pieces also very good. I always suspected some congestion of sound in the conical - esp mid range.
The 2482's sound superb to my ears. Mellow but interesting and alive enough.
Several vistors have commented on their qualities too.
Great for mid organ and piano, guitar, vocal etc.
Those organ chaps won't use anything else.
More listening needed.
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So Webshots finally pulled all the links to pics.
I will rebuild with the with photobucket over time. Weird that not all are gone yet..
As noted on the DSP X over project I have been trialling Behringer 2496 DCX.
Each run in mono mode - using 5 of the 6 ouputs for each side.
Once getting the gain structure more right (on the input side) the sound is not bad.
Bass control is even better. Running 48dB / oct L-R slopes on Tapped and Bass horns.
I am trying 48dB/oct on the lower slope of the mid horns too.
The others sound best at 24dB/oct. i have been able to experiment with various X/O points and pretty much what I had in passives is what I prefer. Apart from running the Raal Lazy ribbons a little lower - down from 9KHz X/O to 6 or 7.
This smooths off the top end of the JBE2435Be. Too low and not enough bite though.
I definitely feel the sonic challenge of the ADC and DACs in Behringer is holding things back.
I do feel I have won back what the 2496 DCX limits though, -banishing the passives in the power anp to driver path and probably by allowing each amp to only have to work on the set freq range.
Running the Raal Lazy's lower, I think I def need another SET amp for them.
2 options - Mod it, bypassing the OP amps that make about 8V output for Pro gear. and get the DSP X/O project solution when available. I will need the expansion board that will take a bit longer to be available though.
Opinions most welcome.
I will rebuild with the with photobucket over time. Weird that not all are gone yet..
As noted on the DSP X over project I have been trialling Behringer 2496 DCX.
Each run in mono mode - using 5 of the 6 ouputs for each side.
Once getting the gain structure more right (on the input side) the sound is not bad.
Bass control is even better. Running 48dB / oct L-R slopes on Tapped and Bass horns.
I am trying 48dB/oct on the lower slope of the mid horns too.
The others sound best at 24dB/oct. i have been able to experiment with various X/O points and pretty much what I had in passives is what I prefer. Apart from running the Raal Lazy ribbons a little lower - down from 9KHz X/O to 6 or 7.
This smooths off the top end of the JBE2435Be. Too low and not enough bite though.
I definitely feel the sonic challenge of the ADC and DACs in Behringer is holding things back.
I do feel I have won back what the 2496 DCX limits though, -banishing the passives in the power anp to driver path and probably by allowing each amp to only have to work on the set freq range.
Running the Raal Lazy's lower, I think I def need another SET amp for them.
2 options - Mod it, bypassing the OP amps that make about 8V output for Pro gear. and get the DSP X/O project solution when available. I will need the expansion board that will take a bit longer to be available though.
Opinions most welcome.
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Thanks for that.
I have been looking and reading about it but taken the plunge.
2 Behringer DCXs
Needing 10 analog outs was also an issue but I guess I could use a small 2 channel miniDSP for the tapped horn / sub and the 8 output on the rest.
Not sure I could time align all that though.
So miniDSP has better SQ than a heavily modded 2496 DCX then - I've read similar and then some who have said about the same. Level of mods perhaps.
The DSP project is looking to match or better miniDSP - I'm going to give that a shot.
I will mod my 2496 DCX with a simple op am bypass though.
I have been looking and reading about it but taken the plunge.
2 Behringer DCXs
Needing 10 analog outs was also an issue but I guess I could use a small 2 channel miniDSP for the tapped horn / sub and the 8 output on the rest.
Not sure I could time align all that though.
So miniDSP has better SQ than a heavily modded 2496 DCX then - I've read similar and then some who have said about the same. Level of mods perhaps.
The DSP project is looking to match or better miniDSP - I'm going to give that a shot.
I will mod my 2496 DCX with a simple op am bypass though.
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You can also use a minidsp and keep one DCX for subs. I do. Maybe the biggest problem is time alignment of the tapped horns, they need very long delay which mini cannot match, 9 ms max. But a lot of people say that time alignment of subs is less important. It is not my experience.
When I said heavily moded it was: digital input, analogue power supply and complete output board
When I said heavily moded it was: digital input, analogue power supply and complete output board
Great work, thanks for posting it! It's so nice to see someone build something, rather than just discussing it. Especially something this big and complex.
There are some fairly simple mods you can do to the DCX to make it sound much better. I've modded a few, and it's a very crossover nice with a little work.
BTW, a number of your photos are now missing in action. Can we fix that?
Especially something this big and complex.There are some fairly simple mods you can do to the DCX to make it sound much better. I've modded a few, and it's a very crossover nice with a little work.
BTW, a number of your photos are now missing in action. Can we fix that?
Great to hear more DCX usage views - I've read most of the thread on here about it all. The flexibility and functionality of the unit is as you say very good.
Yep - Webshots finally died and has gone to Smile, which is not free and is as far as it will not offer a photo hosting / sharing facility. so useless for me.
Never fear I've got all the photos into Photobucket now, so can recreate a few pages at a time - other work load depending...
The first thing I will mod is bypassing the op amps - 4.7uF coupling caps straight from the DAC output connector to the outputs, 47K or perhaps higher resistor to ground. That will get me 2.4V out instead of the current massive amount - my poweramps can return to the normal input settings and hopefully quality will increase.
Soon after I hope to have me hands on the DSP project DCX
I've not looked at ADC side - probably a lot more difficult / beyond me.
I ran the Tapped horn un time aligned for a good while - It crosses at 90Hz on 48dB/oct slope and is Antimode DSP'd adding a further delay of 3ms.
So around 10ms all up - assuming 7ms delay but perhaps it is as high as 9.
It all seems so much better time aligned - I should do some tests on just tapped and bass horn listening, with / without to verify the effect.
The 2496 DCX handles it perfectly. Checking the alignment once DCX'd the first peak positive of the tapped horn and bass horn coincide perfectly.
Yep - Webshots finally died and has gone to Smile, which is not free and is as far as it will not offer a photo hosting / sharing facility. so useless for me.
Never fear I've got all the photos into Photobucket now, so can recreate a few pages at a time - other work load depending...
The first thing I will mod is bypassing the op amps - 4.7uF coupling caps straight from the DAC output connector to the outputs, 47K or perhaps higher resistor to ground. That will get me 2.4V out instead of the current massive amount - my poweramps can return to the normal input settings and hopefully quality will increase.
Soon after I hope to have me hands on the DSP project DCX
I've not looked at ADC side - probably a lot more difficult / beyond me.
I ran the Tapped horn un time aligned for a good while - It crosses at 90Hz on 48dB/oct slope and is Antimode DSP'd adding a further delay of 3ms.
So around 10ms all up - assuming 7ms delay but perhaps it is as high as 9.
It all seems so much better time aligned - I should do some tests on just tapped and bass horn listening, with / without to verify the effect.
The 2496 DCX handles it perfectly. Checking the alignment once DCX'd the first peak positive of the tapped horn and bass horn coincide perfectly.
If you contact me via PM, I can help get the photos back in, and this time hosted here on the forum, so they'll stay around.
The ADC isn't hard. I just built a nice opamp circuit to go from unbalanced to balanced and provide the low impedance that the ADC wants. Used the DCX +/-15V rails with local decoupling. Works like a charm, sounds great.
For the outputs simply route the DAC outputs to 1:1 line transformers, then on to the amps. Also works great. Replacing the cheap electrolytic caps on the DSP board also worked wonders. I just did the 5V supplies near the DAC chips and near the regulator. Used 100uF/25V Panasonic FM series, IIRC. Whatever is the largest value of the Panny FM that is in the same size package as the original caps. Easy switch. A much more dynamic sound as a result. A pleasant surprise!
Ah yes the edit func. disappears on this forum - forgot that...
Wow those mods seem beyond me. I have more basic electronic abilities.
Small steps
Wow those mods seem beyond me. I have more basic electronic abilities.
Small steps
Last night I finished off the 1st Behringer DCX mod. As per passive output stage for Behringer DCX2496
This shows all the components that Behringer though
Double checked all and then fired it up on the Tapped and bass - can't damage them with much as they are Eminence Kappa 15" 650W Pro drivers...
Always sounds weird with just bass and weirder still with just one channel playing.
Then I fedd the other drivers in carefully and bingo - we have a 5 way mono.
Was not sure about the sound at first. But seemed to improve - caps getting used to working perhaps?!
A lot less gain so my power amps could be set pretty much as I had them before the DCX malachy
Anyway - cracked on with the other one for the other side. Having done one side the 2nd was quick and easy...
Stereo pair sounded more normal and all working. Setting the power amps at the reference of pretty much exactly what I had them at with the passives gave a nice balance of the driver vols.
I am so used to changing the different levels after tweaks and honing in, I do it by ear and prefer it to what measures flattest.
The more I played and tested the more I liked what I hear - always have to be careful that your ear adjusts and fools you. Obviously can't hot switch this mod
Some nice improvements to detail and clarity of instruments and vocals we clearly discernible - bit unsure of the bass, need to test that more this evening...
This shows all the components that Behringer though
Double checked all and then fired it up on the Tapped and bass - can't damage them with much as they are Eminence Kappa 15" 650W Pro drivers...
Always sounds weird with just bass and weirder still with just one channel playing.
Then I fedd the other drivers in carefully and bingo - we have a 5 way mono.
Was not sure about the sound at first. But seemed to improve - caps getting used to working perhaps?!
A lot less gain so my power amps could be set pretty much as I had them before the DCX malachy
Anyway - cracked on with the other one for the other side. Having done one side the 2nd was quick and easy...
Stereo pair sounded more normal and all working. Setting the power amps at the reference of pretty much exactly what I had them at with the passives gave a nice balance of the driver vols.
I am so used to changing the different levels after tweaks and honing in, I do it by ear and prefer it to what measures flattest.
The more I played and tested the more I liked what I hear - always have to be careful that your ear adjusts and fools you. Obviously can't hot switch this mod
Some nice improvements to detail and clarity of instruments and vocals we clearly discernible - bit unsure of the bass, need to test that more this evening...
Over Christmas I have been testing further and swapped back to the passives.
I do prefer the passives though. There is more clarity, detail and punch in mid, upper and tweeter. Even the bass is clearer but not as well defined as with the active steeper slopes (if that backs sense).
My latest madness is a pair of Vitavox S2's. One is near mint and has been reconditioned recently by Vitavox. The other is completely missing its diaphragm. That will be going back to Vitavox in the new year for clean, recharge and new diaphragm.
Then I will have S2's to play with.
Measurements only tell you so much - As I have learned with BMS4296 and JBL2482 drivers that measure very, very similarly - tone is something else that can't be so easily measured.
After that I am thinking of a round Hyperbolic or Exponential bass horn to match the others. This will most probably be a laminated birch ply rings affair and cut on a basic horn lathe I will make.
Cut something like this.
Azurahorn -Le Cleac'h Acoustic Horns - DIY Manafacture
Other news - I invested in a further EL84 SET amp for the Raal Lazy Ribbon tweeters.
Much nicer sound over the T-amp. I needed to make a wider shelf. Bit of birch ply and med oak coloured wax did the job.
I do prefer the passives though. There is more clarity, detail and punch in mid, upper and tweeter. Even the bass is clearer but not as well defined as with the active steeper slopes (if that backs sense).
My latest madness is a pair of Vitavox S2's. One is near mint and has been reconditioned recently by Vitavox. The other is completely missing its diaphragm. That will be going back to Vitavox in the new year for clean, recharge and new diaphragm.
Then I will have S2's to play with.
Measurements only tell you so much - As I have learned with BMS4296 and JBL2482 drivers that measure very, very similarly - tone is something else that can't be so easily measured.
After that I am thinking of a round Hyperbolic or Exponential bass horn to match the others. This will most probably be a laminated birch ply rings affair and cut on a basic horn lathe I will make.
Cut something like this.
Azurahorn -Le Cleac'h Acoustic Horns - DIY Manafacture
Other news - I invested in a further EL84 SET amp for the Raal Lazy Ribbon tweeters.
Much nicer sound over the T-amp. I needed to make a wider shelf. Bit of birch ply and med oak coloured wax did the job.
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Today's fun will be identifying more photos for Pano to fix the broken links on this thread when Webshots turned off.
Nice work by Pano fixing the first page some of the 31 pics!
Plus I hope to get time today / tomorrow to break out the Tapped horn and bass horn passive components into separate boxes. The 5 way crossover boxes just sort of grew and whist I was smart in inducter placement, there may be some gains to be had from separating them further. The do interfere with each other, esp the big ones I guess and I have some 30mH ones in there!
I do pace them rotated / flipped to each other, if that makes sense.
Another reason is placement can be better and it's more flexible cabling wise.
Nice work by Pano fixing the first page some of the 31 pics!
Plus I hope to get time today / tomorrow to break out the Tapped horn and bass horn passive components into separate boxes. The 5 way crossover boxes just sort of grew and whist I was smart in inducter placement, there may be some gains to be had from separating them further. The do interfere with each other, esp the big ones I guess and I have some 30mH ones in there!
I do pace them rotated / flipped to each other, if that makes sense.
Another reason is placement can be better and it's more flexible cabling wise.
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The passive re-housing is done. In the end I only needed to re-house the 4th order rig for the tapped horns. Once these were out of the way there was plenty of room for the other 4 relatively puny size of the other 4 way components - 24mH inductors / 316uF caps + 12mH inductors / 70uF caps + Zobel. That lot all takes up quite a space.
New dedicated boxes made for the tapped horn passives.
So does it sound any different - No not really, at least not on first casual listening... Perhaps some more bass complex stuff will reveal more.
I will now go back to the Behringer x 2 DSP DCX to see how I feel about this solution.
I am trying to keep an open mind, I am trying to keep an open mind
New dedicated boxes made for the tapped horn passives.
So does it sound any different - No not really, at least not on first casual listening... Perhaps some more bass complex stuff will reveal more.
I will now go back to the Behringer x 2 DSP DCX to see how I feel about this solution.
I am trying to keep an open mind, I am trying to keep an open mind
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So after over an hour of listening to Behringer 2496 DCX here are my thoughts.
Without any DSP time or phase correction (all are aligned apart from the tapped horn using Holmimpulse), and all the slopes and X/O points set to the same as the passives, it sounds quite similar to the analogue.
It has remarkably similar properties in terms of sound signature and overall characteristics.
BUT and there is a big but, it is about 80-90% of the resolution of the passives. Imagine a high res picture or TV picture in very good clarity and sharpness, then look at a lower res picture, pixelated or that shimmer you get. That is what the sound diff is like in visual terms.
The DCX fails to resolve with clarity, anywhere on the frequency range. Quite clear when you just listen to a single pair of drivers. Even more obvious LH to RH comparisons of a mono signal. I would be able to pick out the DCX every time I believe.
Cymbals are a bit of a disaster, the DCX just makes a poor attempt at them, splashy and not realistic or convincing. Gone is the shimming Raal fineness.
As soon as the music gets complex, it gets messy. Makes me want to go for the next calmer, less difficult to resolve track.
Me, I'm going back to the passives... and will await the DIY DSP DCX and see what that holds.
Without any DSP time or phase correction (all are aligned apart from the tapped horn using Holmimpulse), and all the slopes and X/O points set to the same as the passives, it sounds quite similar to the analogue.
It has remarkably similar properties in terms of sound signature and overall characteristics.
BUT and there is a big but, it is about 80-90% of the resolution of the passives. Imagine a high res picture or TV picture in very good clarity and sharpness, then look at a lower res picture, pixelated or that shimmer you get. That is what the sound diff is like in visual terms.
The DCX fails to resolve with clarity, anywhere on the frequency range. Quite clear when you just listen to a single pair of drivers. Even more obvious LH to RH comparisons of a mono signal. I would be able to pick out the DCX every time I believe.
Cymbals are a bit of a disaster, the DCX just makes a poor attempt at them, splashy and not realistic or convincing. Gone is the shimming Raal fineness.
As soon as the music gets complex, it gets messy. Makes me want to go for the next calmer, less difficult to resolve track.
Me, I'm going back to the passives... and will await the DIY DSP DCX and see what that holds.
Hi,
Good choice moving to a sound that you enjoy. Cymbals that shimmer is a goodness!
I understand waiting out the DIY DSP DCX solution as well. In the meantime, consider the points Pano brought up earlier. A little more modding may result in >90% resolution of the passive solution. Doesn't look like a costly or difficult mod. I am sure someone could help if you are not comfortable with the task.
PANO wrote;
"Replacing the cheap electrolytic caps on the DSP board also worked wonders. I just did the 5V supplies near the DAC chips and near the regulator. Used 100uF/25V Panasonic FM series, IIRC. Whatever is the largest value of the Panny FM that is in the same size package as the original caps. Easy switch. A much more dynamic sound as a result. A pleasant surprise!"
Love this thread!
Good choice moving to a sound that you enjoy. Cymbals that shimmer is a goodness!
I understand waiting out the DIY DSP DCX solution as well. In the meantime, consider the points Pano brought up earlier. A little more modding may result in >90% resolution of the passive solution. Doesn't look like a costly or difficult mod. I am sure someone could help if you are not comfortable with the task.
PANO wrote;
"Replacing the cheap electrolytic caps on the DSP board also worked wonders. I just did the 5V supplies near the DAC chips and near the regulator. Used 100uF/25V Panasonic FM series, IIRC. Whatever is the largest value of the Panny FM that is in the same size package as the original caps. Easy switch. A much more dynamic sound as a result. A pleasant surprise!"
Love this thread!