Speedysteve, you've done well to get this far, doing it your own way. I know I'm not the only one who's impressed.
So I'll just say this and be on my way. Looking at the top graph, the region below 150Hz is special and is caused by room modes. You should make one more attempt to correct this region acoustically, and then reapply your DSP. I think you'll prefer it this way. You'll want to get one woofer (sub) and cross it around below 150Hz. Place it in your room so that it flatens the 150Hz and below region. Position is most important, level and phase will need to be adjuusted for best fit. Time alignment is not the same kind of issue down here as the sound is already caught up in bouncing around the room, hence the peaks and dips, so it might be OK to put this sub anywhere that works, even assimetrically with the system.
And finally, your peak at 400Hz is important and may be better treated acoustically first, as well. It is 'probably' a reflection from either the front wall, same side wall, floor or ceiling.
So I'll just say this and be on my way. Looking at the top graph, the region below 150Hz is special and is caused by room modes. You should make one more attempt to correct this region acoustically, and then reapply your DSP. I think you'll prefer it this way. You'll want to get one woofer (sub) and cross it around below 150Hz. Place it in your room so that it flatens the 150Hz and below region. Position is most important, level and phase will need to be adjuusted for best fit. Time alignment is not the same kind of issue down here as the sound is already caught up in bouncing around the room, hence the peaks and dips, so it might be OK to put this sub anywhere that works, even assimetrically with the system.
And finally, your peak at 400Hz is important and may be better treated acoustically first, as well. It is 'probably' a reflection from either the front wall, same side wall, floor or ceiling.
Yeah we'll see about the acoustic damping - never say never.
Will measure again now perfectly time aligned...
Other news
Stands modifie
wider (to accommodate the entire wide of the mid bass back chamber so it just passes right underneath.
How it looks side on time aligned according to HOLMUpulse and my ears are confirming...
The keen eyed among you will notice the driver clamps so no movement and the rear locks that are marked up for re-alignment after dismantle / reassemble . The Lazy ribbons now clamp to the back bone of the stand and have a moveable foot clamped on for height ref that I can change should I want to raise the
drivers to give more distance and air to them (Scalford?)
Next up make alignment lock offs for the mid bass before anyone touches them!
I do have a wife and kids
Will measure again now perfectly time aligned...
Other news
Stands modifie
wider (to accommodate the entire wide of the mid bass back chamber so it just passes right underneath.
How it looks side on time aligned according to HOLMUpulse and my ears are confirming...
The keen eyed among you will notice the driver clamps so no movement and the rear locks that are marked up for re-alignment after dismantle / reassemble . The Lazy ribbons now clamp to the back bone of the stand and have a moveable foot clamped on for height ref that I can change should I want to raise the
drivers to give more distance and air to them (Scalford?)
Next up make alignment lock offs for the mid bass before anyone touches them!
I do have a wife and kids
Last edited:
I have been taking a look at the tapped horns - more reading up and have decided to take mine to 4th order / 24dB per octave.
Mr Danley sure knows a thing or two about it all. He recommends 24dB/oct for his DTS20 tower of power's. Made of same birch ply qual / thickness as i used.
I noticed though that his measurement plot only goes up to 100Hz and seems pretty smoothed out - wonder what they look like above that?!
Anyway, I have only done the LH channel so far (good for L / R comparison measurements). Other reason is that all the components have not arrived yet.
Here my RH channel with 2nd order, 12dB/oct X/O
Here is my LH tapped with 4th order, 24dB/oct.
I still have a drop of some 7 dB from peak at just over 30Hz down to where lets face it, mid 41's, where most of the action is taking place in normal music. The normal music region is pretty flat. I might try running Anti-Mode on it again and see.
The mid bass horn overlap looks like this (all 4 horns and a ribbon).
All measurements taken at the ear position on the sofa
I can boost up / reduce areas to some extent with the 5 amps control of each horn pair of course.
I am close to the magic + / - 5 dB across the whole range. I must search out for other peoples measurements and see what can be achieved.
It's hard to tell how much this has cleaned up the action in listening with the RH channel still playing as it is on 2nd order. I can perceive some but it's masked of course by the peak from the RH still.
Anyway with it like this (plenty of dB's at 20Hz) Bach on big Church organs still sounds great, as the low notes are hit I get a little boost where most speakers are rolled off into nothing.
Hopefully tomorrow the big caps will arrive so I can do the RH side over the weekend.
Adjustable feet going on the stands tomorrow anyhow. Decided to machine down threaded bar coupling nuts to make inserts that will fit into the stands bases with a few spot welds to retain / give strength. Be doing that tomorrow evening.
Mr Danley sure knows a thing or two about it all. He recommends 24dB/oct for his DTS20 tower of power's. Made of same birch ply qual / thickness as i used.
I noticed though that his measurement plot only goes up to 100Hz and seems pretty smoothed out - wonder what they look like above that?!
Anyway, I have only done the LH channel so far (good for L / R comparison measurements). Other reason is that all the components have not arrived yet.
Here my RH channel with 2nd order, 12dB/oct X/O
Here is my LH tapped with 4th order, 24dB/oct.
I still have a drop of some 7 dB from peak at just over 30Hz down to where lets face it, mid 41's, where most of the action is taking place in normal music. The normal music region is pretty flat. I might try running Anti-Mode on it again and see.
The mid bass horn overlap looks like this (all 4 horns and a ribbon).
All measurements taken at the ear position on the sofa
I can boost up / reduce areas to some extent with the 5 amps control of each horn pair of course.
I am close to the magic + / - 5 dB across the whole range. I must search out for other peoples measurements and see what can be achieved.
It's hard to tell how much this has cleaned up the action in listening with the RH channel still playing as it is on 2nd order. I can perceive some but it's masked of course by the peak from the RH still.
Anyway with it like this (plenty of dB's at 20Hz) Bach on big Church organs still sounds great, as the low notes are hit I get a little boost where most speakers are rolled off into nothing.
Hopefully tomorrow the big caps will arrive so I can do the RH side over the weekend.
Adjustable feet going on the stands tomorrow anyhow. Decided to machine down threaded bar coupling nuts to make inserts that will fit into the stands bases with a few spot welds to retain / give strength. Be doing that tomorrow evening.
Last edited:
A good suggestion from Mr Coco is LImp. Quite possible I need more mH' here and there- will check that out more.
Both sides done to 24dB/oct and sounding good. Lower mid bass is faster and cleaner for sure. The mid bass horns are able to play through at their low end without distraction from the tapped horns - that's how it sounds anyway. Def worth doing.
Both sides done to 24dB/oct and sounding good. Lower mid bass is faster and cleaner for sure. The mid bass horns are able to play through at their low end without distraction from the tapped horns - that's how it sounds anyway. Def worth doing.
Looks like the measurement system is showing the noise floor, what does the measurement look like when the input is turned off?
A little update -
Today I had the tapped horns outside for a spot of finishing (used a large porters trolley to move them, worked well strapping them to it and using the cab as a handle).
Here's a pic of them - tiddly really. Actually they look bigger outside than they do tucked in the room corners.
Scalford here we come (next weekend)...
Yes weltersys I guess so, what do you mean with the input turned off?
Today I had the tapped horns outside for a spot of finishing (used a large porters trolley to move them, worked well strapping them to it and using the cab as a handle).
Here's a pic of them - tiddly really. Actually they look bigger outside than they do tucked in the room corners.
Scalford here we come (next weekend)...
Yes weltersys I guess so, what do you mean with the input turned off?
Last edited:
Well, you may have heard of the Scalford Hifi show. Nr Melton Mowbray (the home of the pork pie - no less).
I took the horn system along for it. All 425kg of them - that's just the 5 ways, amps etc on top of that. Filled a long wheelbase Transit no problem.
Here's how they looked in room
Note the tapped horns sounded and measured best firing across towards each other..
I did use the Antimodes to fix the room modes for them.
The cable to the mic that came with them was a bit short for this massive room!
Best seats were second row or so!
Panoramic from phone.
The room was pretty echo'y and 170 sqm with a 2.7m high ceiling - never time to full sort out or try different positions much either.
I eq'd the bass and put the tapped horns where they sounded best in the time we had.
The tapped horns pressured that room no problem at all. The compression drivers were ticking over really and the mid bass and tweeters were fine too.
Sounded much better with some 30 persons sitting down in front and standing at the back actually as you would guess.
I got many a hand pump and questions and some very nice feedback too. Folk loved the size and sound.
Bach's Toccata (Lionel Rogg) sounded epic!
One thing though - due to the room door size, being a stupid 700mm wide, I had to cut the mid bass horns down a bit to get them in. Nothing a bit of PVA and filler would not fix.
Here's the deed in progress (only took a top section out, so strength and integrity was not compromised. Was still incredibly stong!
(taken by Setting Son)
Great show of real peoples hifi - ro rooms of totally non-commercial real peoples gear acquired / built with love and care and really good spirit and socialising with curry session for a whole coach load on the Sat evening before the show.
Horses for courses but the system sounds miles better in my own room. so intimate, involving and great presence.
I took the horn system along for it. All 425kg of them - that's just the 5 ways, amps etc on top of that. Filled a long wheelbase Transit no problem.
Here's how they looked in room
Note the tapped horns sounded and measured best firing across towards each other..
I did use the Antimodes to fix the room modes for them.
The cable to the mic that came with them was a bit short for this massive room!
Best seats were second row or so!
Panoramic from phone.
The room was pretty echo'y and 170 sqm with a 2.7m high ceiling - never time to full sort out or try different positions much either.
I eq'd the bass and put the tapped horns where they sounded best in the time we had.
The tapped horns pressured that room no problem at all. The compression drivers were ticking over really and the mid bass and tweeters were fine too.
Sounded much better with some 30 persons sitting down in front and standing at the back actually as you would guess.
I got many a hand pump and questions and some very nice feedback too. Folk loved the size and sound.
Bach's Toccata (Lionel Rogg) sounded epic!
One thing though - due to the room door size, being a stupid 700mm wide, I had to cut the mid bass horns down a bit to get them in. Nothing a bit of PVA and filler would not fix.
Here's the deed in progress (only took a top section out, so strength and integrity was not compromised. Was still incredibly stong!
(taken by Setting Son)
Great show of real peoples hifi - ro rooms of totally non-commercial real peoples gear acquired / built with love and care and really good spirit and socialising with curry session for a whole coach load on the Sat evening before the show.
Horses for courses but the system sounds miles better in my own room. so intimate, involving and great presence.
Last edited:
Why thank you SP25.
I was quite unsure about the SQ to start with on Sat during testing, but that is what setup / testing is for - On Sunday as more and more people came in the room and the longer I listened the better it got...
I played it for about 7 hrs in my room yesterday (had the day off to recover / restore in room) and love it.
I was quite unsure about the SQ to start with on Sat during testing, but that is what setup / testing is for - On Sunday as more and more people came in the room and the longer I listened the better it got...
I played it for about 7 hrs in my room yesterday (had the day off to recover / restore in room) and love it.
Yeah, It was either flounce off in a huff having loaded and driven for 3hrs or get creative & adapt. Trusting no one, I did take a saw with me.
They will make a full recovery.
They will make a full recovery.
Dedication. 425 kg's of it.
Too bad about having to cut the mid bass horns but it looks like all is well again.
A little update:
I have been trying the Upper mid horn in the lower position (swapping the tweeter to above it).
This means the upper mid is at ear level rather than the tweeter.
It did of course mean re-time aligning and a new more flexible mounting system for the upper mid that I like more.
So far extended listening tests are proving positive.
It is not night and day and tonally, but the centrality of the vocal image is better anchored and the horns seem to work even more seamlessly.
I don't think I've tried it this way around properly with the Raals - I did try it with the JBL2405 tweeters but they did not integrate anything like as well as the Raal Lazy ribbons do, so perhaps that was something to do with my not liking it so much.
I also moved stuff around the room a bit and put a storage cab infront of the left tapped horn. That and moving the right tapped horn a couple of inches forward, to accommodate the crossover box more sensibly , I found the deep bass a bit boomy compared to the nice deep tight bass I am used to.
So out came the Anti-mode 8033c mic and a quick re-cal for both sides, had it sorted in no time. Normal service resumed.
I am also experimenting with acoustic absorption on the backs of the horns that could see reflections from the horns behind them. Not pictured in the top pic apart from that which is under the mid horn. Slightly cleaner sound resulting.
I have been trying the Upper mid horn in the lower position (swapping the tweeter to above it).
This means the upper mid is at ear level rather than the tweeter.
It did of course mean re-time aligning and a new more flexible mounting system for the upper mid that I like more.
So far extended listening tests are proving positive.
It is not night and day and tonally, but the centrality of the vocal image is better anchored and the horns seem to work even more seamlessly.
I don't think I've tried it this way around properly with the Raals - I did try it with the JBL2405 tweeters but they did not integrate anything like as well as the Raal Lazy ribbons do, so perhaps that was something to do with my not liking it so much.
I also moved stuff around the room a bit and put a storage cab infront of the left tapped horn. That and moving the right tapped horn a couple of inches forward, to accommodate the crossover box more sensibly , I found the deep bass a bit boomy compared to the nice deep tight bass I am used to.
So out came the Anti-mode 8033c mic and a quick re-cal for both sides, had it sorted in no time. Normal service resumed.
I am also experimenting with acoustic absorption on the backs of the horns that could see reflections from the horns behind them. Not pictured in the top pic apart from that which is under the mid horn. Slightly cleaner sound resulting.
Last edited:
update time - a few changes...
Just took delivery of another add-on to try.
Can you guess what they are for?
Wife thought some kind of weird urinal. Daughter said some kind of guide for the butt...
Some wood chopping to make mounts that will fit them. More birch ply and table sawing.
Today I made some new lash up holders for the tweeters and provision to secure the wave guides.
As noted they are extremely nicely made, very solid and nicely weighted.
So far I have just plonked them down and with rough (by measurement where they were on the previous holders) alignment.
This is not ideal as at 10000Hz a mm here or there is quite a lot in terms of alignment error.
So here is how they look in place
So far, with a just a quick listen I quite like what I hear.
Def. needed to time align and measure before and after to see what if going on.
What I am hearing is more presence in the very upper registers - no ****, you'll say, that's what I expected!
I **** you not!
Of course it could all be my eyes fooling my ears with these big white things on, or just knowing they are there, hehe...
Here are the first Raal Lazy ribbon measurement comparisons of the waveguide. Taken at 1m on axis.
JBL2405's and Rough Eminence tweeters as well - ah another day.
The waveguide gives a boost of some 5 to 10dB - Not insignificant! I do have to back the volume off quite a bit with the guide on...
Just took delivery of another add-on to try.
Can you guess what they are for?
Wife thought some kind of weird urinal. Daughter said some kind of guide for the butt...
Some wood chopping to make mounts that will fit them. More birch ply and table sawing.
Today I made some new lash up holders for the tweeters and provision to secure the wave guides.
As noted they are extremely nicely made, very solid and nicely weighted.
So far I have just plonked them down and with rough (by measurement where they were on the previous holders) alignment.
This is not ideal as at 10000Hz a mm here or there is quite a lot in terms of alignment error.
So here is how they look in place
So far, with a just a quick listen I quite like what I hear.
Def. needed to time align and measure before and after to see what if going on.
What I am hearing is more presence in the very upper registers - no ****, you'll say, that's what I expected!
I **** you not!
Of course it could all be my eyes fooling my ears with these big white things on, or just knowing they are there, hehe...
Here are the first Raal Lazy ribbon measurement comparisons of the waveguide. Taken at 1m on axis.
JBL2405's and Rough Eminence tweeters as well - ah another day.
The waveguide gives a boost of some 5 to 10dB - Not insignificant! I do have to back the volume off quite a bit with the guide on...
Last edited:
So, I took delivery of a pair of 600Hz horns made by Cube Audio. Thanks to Greg (G-Point) for the fast delivery.
Very well packed and nicely made. The thick walls means no risk of resonance at these frequencies...
They are dinky little things, just 110mm long and 200mm mouth diameter when made to take my 1.5" JBL 2435Be drivers... Designed to work from min 900Hz.
The 2435's bolted straight on and are a very easy to mount / deal with package, compared to my larger DIY birch plywood 12 sided conicals.
I've not had too much time for hifi lately - the pressures of a new job.
So this first review is confined to the a measure and first listening impressions.
First I compared the Tractrix-600 with my conicals in like for like swapped measurement position. This is with the mic where my ear normally is - that is real world for me.
def more filling in of the sub 850Hz to 1.1 KHz region and the over 7KHz too. In general a little flatter here and there too.
These were done 1/6 octave.
Going to 1/15 oct shows the same thing. Both show a good adherence to the +/- 5dB rule across the freq I am using.
This evening I got the time to plonk the pair down in the system and time align them in using hornresp to measure to the nearest ms
Listening now.
Can I hear any difference then? Well they certainly sound bigger than they look. Sort of weird seeing such small horns in my system after so long looking at the larger conicals...
First impressions - not a lot wrong with that sound. Def no regression in quality/realism or dynamics and speed.
They just sound sort of right too. I need more listening time before further utterances - which will come.
I can see a further benefit - the reduced size means I can pull the rig height down some. More compact focal point for the sound. Could equal better? Perhaps. Need to try it. That will be another time though as I have to work tomorrow too!
I am now tempted to try the Auto Tech Tractrix 200's with my JBL2482's as well.
Very well packed and nicely made. The thick walls means no risk of resonance at these frequencies...
They are dinky little things, just 110mm long and 200mm mouth diameter when made to take my 1.5" JBL 2435Be drivers... Designed to work from min 900Hz.
The 2435's bolted straight on and are a very easy to mount / deal with package, compared to my larger DIY birch plywood 12 sided conicals.
I've not had too much time for hifi lately - the pressures of a new job.
So this first review is confined to the a measure and first listening impressions.
First I compared the Tractrix-600 with my conicals in like for like swapped measurement position. This is with the mic where my ear normally is - that is real world for me.
def more filling in of the sub 850Hz to 1.1 KHz region and the over 7KHz too. In general a little flatter here and there too.
These were done 1/6 octave.
Going to 1/15 oct shows the same thing. Both show a good adherence to the +/- 5dB rule across the freq I am using.
This evening I got the time to plonk the pair down in the system and time align them in using hornresp to measure to the nearest ms
Listening now.
Can I hear any difference then? Well they certainly sound bigger than they look. Sort of weird seeing such small horns in my system after so long looking at the larger conicals...
First impressions - not a lot wrong with that sound. Def no regression in quality/realism or dynamics and speed.
They just sound sort of right too. I need more listening time before further utterances - which will come.
I can see a further benefit - the reduced size means I can pull the rig height down some. More compact focal point for the sound. Could equal better? Perhaps. Need to try it. That will be another time though as I have to work tomorrow too!
I am now tempted to try the Auto Tech Tractrix 200's with my JBL2482's as well.
Last edited: