Update: A few things have happened...
I have now got a SE EL84 valve amp on the mids (JBL 2482's), The bass is now a 50W amp for the tapped horns and another same amp for the mid bass. Much better control and power reserve. The upper mid (2435Be's) is on a bigger TP22 amp (TA2022). I personally find this sweeter than the TA2020 or TA2021's on that driver.
I have used the SE valve amp on the upper mids too and it worked nicely there. I think I need to save my pennies and get one more for the upper mid horns. Perhaps another one for the tweeters (now JBL 2405's) is overkill.
The 2405's are better than the cheapie Eminence BTW...
Next up is building stands for the upper mid / tweeters and the mid horns that are more discrete and allow more space/air around the tweeters.
For the time being I have refined the acoustic damping around the tweeters too.
I like these Icon Audio EL84 set amps for the compression drivers.
Will try tube rolling sometime.
I have now got a SE EL84 valve amp on the mids (JBL 2482's), The bass is now a 50W amp for the tapped horns and another same amp for the mid bass. Much better control and power reserve. The upper mid (2435Be's) is on a bigger TP22 amp (TA2022). I personally find this sweeter than the TA2020 or TA2021's on that driver.
I have used the SE valve amp on the upper mids too and it worked nicely there. I think I need to save my pennies and get one more for the upper mid horns. Perhaps another one for the tweeters (now JBL 2405's) is overkill.
The 2405's are better than the cheapie Eminence BTW...
Next up is building stands for the upper mid / tweeters and the mid horns that are more discrete and allow more space/air around the tweeters.
For the time being I have refined the acoustic damping around the tweeters too.
I like these Icon Audio EL84 set amps for the compression drivers.
Will try tube rolling sometime.
Last edited:
Your conical horns sidewall angle appear to be only around 30 degree, which would largely define their dispersion, that is a lot less than most "normal" 90 -180 degree dispersion speakers.
That narrow dispersion takes a lot of the room out of the listening experience.
Seems odd to use such a wide horizontal dispersion tweeter as the JBL 2405 with such narrow mid horns.
Last edited:
Good point: This was what I could beg / borrow for the time being...
Do have recommendations for narrower dispersion tweeters of suitable quality? It's not an area I have explored yet
The Eminence tweeters were very narrow - drop off quickly off beam but the 2405's sound better to my ears.
I have found as you say that the room does not impact much - but the necessary closeness of the other horns does - a bit. Some improvement with damping foam. It was not horrible before but is a bit better with it and easy to do.
The stand is as much ascetics and practicality - I am taking these to a show (what you made / have - Scalford in March) so need to look good and be easy to set up, so stands are on the agenda.
Do have recommendations for narrower dispersion tweeters of suitable quality? It's not an area I have explored yet
The Eminence tweeters were very narrow - drop off quickly off beam but the 2405's sound better to my ears.
I have found as you say that the room does not impact much - but the necessary closeness of the other horns does - a bit. Some improvement with damping foam. It was not horrible before but is a bit better with it and easy to do.
The stand is as much ascetics and practicality - I am taking these to a show (what you made / have - Scalford in March) so need to look good and be easy to set up, so stands are on the agenda.
The narrow vertical dispersion of the 2405 would minimize the early reflections off the other horns, which probably impacts SQ much more than the later bounce off the room side walls the 140 degree horizontal dispersion would allow.Good point: This was what I could beg / borrow for the time being...
Do have recommendations for narrower dispersion tweeters of suitable quality? It's not an area I have explored yet
The Eminence tweeters were very narrow - drop off quickly off beam but the 2405's sound better to my ears.
I have found as you say that the room does not impact much - but the necessary closeness of the other horns does - a bit. Some improvement with damping foam. It was not horrible before but is a bit better with it and easy to do.
The stand is as much ascetics and practicality - I am taking these to a show (what you made / have - Scalford in March) so need to look good and be easy to set up, so stands are on the agenda.
I like 2405s OK, though I prefer a conical horn to a diffraction horn.
I have not done enough A/B testing of compression driver tweeters to bring much to the table for recommendations, though B&C would be on my short list to try.
The Eminence APT drivers sound good when equalized flat, the problem being they are not matched well, so doing that is not easy, especially with passive crossovers.
Variations in response between drivers can be 6 dB or more.
I have made horns for the APT drivers that sound a bit better than the APT-80. They are conical, with the Hughes type throat transition.
A more narrow horizontal version (mine are 90 x 30) would probably work nicely in your system.
Of course, making some petal horns for the tweeters to match your other horns would look cool.
Art
Attachments
Yeah I thought about re-housing the Eminence tweeters in a 12 sides birch ply flower to match - Might try that when I feel the hankering to cut wood
With any luck I will be able to try out some Raal Lazy ribbon tweeters.
At the price I really cannot buy blind so many thanks to ADPully who owns a pair and is offing to pop over with them for a session. He gets a free listen to the 5 way system of course.
I have moved the upper horns down in the line as much as possible to allow more headroom around the tweeter / accommodate the 21cm length of the Raal's in anticipation.
Sounding pretty mighty now - if I do say so myself but here is what Mr Coco of the Wam wrote about them...
"Yes, it sounded very good indeed! It has amazing presence and a really effortless presentation. The tube amp has sweetened the upper mid which sounds less grey and more vivid than I previously remember. The slight residual bloom on the upper bass has been eliminated, too. As for the way they pressurise the room at LF... I imagine they could be used as a weapon/torture device!"
Only torture is you turn the tapped up out of all proportion of course
Roll on that 2nd EL84 SE amp for the Mid horned JBL2482's...
At the price I really cannot buy blind so many thanks to ADPully who owns a pair and is offing to pop over with them for a session. He gets a free listen to the 5 way system of course
.I have moved the upper horns down in the line as much as possible to allow more headroom around the tweeter / accommodate the 21cm length of the Raal's in anticipation.
Sounding pretty mighty now - if I do say so myself but here is what Mr Coco of the Wam wrote about them...
"Yes, it sounded very good indeed! It has amazing presence and a really effortless presentation. The tube amp has sweetened the upper mid which sounds less grey and more vivid than I previously remember. The slight residual bloom on the upper bass has been eliminated, too. As for the way they pressurise the room at LF... I imagine they could be used as a weapon/torture device!"
Only torture is you turn the tapped up out of all proportion of course
Roll on that 2nd EL84 SE amp for the Mid horned JBL2482's...
A little update with some pics of the amps I am now using.
These two EL84 mini SET amps one for the mid horns with the JBL2482's and upper mids with the JBL2435Be's.
For the tapped and mid bass I now have a pair of the Topping TP60's.
The two TP-60 (50w into 8ohm) amps have really tightened up the bass - faster, accurate and on it. Since fixing the Zobels and getting these amps there is no apparent issues with Tapped to midbass overlapp.
The smaller 25w in 8ohm TP22 is for the tweeters (JBL2405's).
Finally a few lovely SPU's for good measure.
Next weekend I hope to test listen to the Raal Lazy Ribbons...
These two EL84 mini SET amps one for the mid horns with the JBL2482's and upper mids with the JBL2435Be's.
For the tapped and mid bass I now have a pair of the Topping TP60's.
The two TP-60 (50w into 8ohm) amps have really tightened up the bass - faster, accurate and on it. Since fixing the Zobels and getting these amps there is no apparent issues with Tapped to midbass overlapp.
The smaller 25w in 8ohm TP22 is for the tweeters (JBL2405's).
Finally a few lovely SPU's for good measure.
Next weekend I hope to test listen to the Raal Lazy Ribbons...
Last edited:
Update: I did test some Raal Lazy ribbons and they integrated very well. These are the 9" versions and we used the 14 ohm tap and 105dB efficiency.
They are 'only' working from 9000Hz up but what they brought to the party was a seemless integration with the upper mid horn and it just sounded right. I was so involved it in all I forgot to take any photos!
Prior to this test I had moved the position of the tweeter so it is above the big mid bass horn and below the upper mid horn. Things work much better like this. The image and focus of the music is improved.
I've also been making some more flexible and permanent stands. The two stage wood ones were just lashed up from off cuts of wood I've had in the garage.
Each stand started out as a pack of steel square tubing
Checking heights and dimensions
Now added more tubes and temporary hangers for the horns
You don't see much stand from the front
I might paint them in same finish as the horns (when I get around to finishing them) or the same colour as the walls - not decided yet. Black primer for now.
At this stage I have just 'hung' the horns using ratchet straps to make it adjustable height and time alignment wise.
Now I am making some large upbolts to carry the horns.
I have quite a lot of adjustment room for raising the mid horn and upper mid to squeeze longer Ribbon tweeter in should I be able to get hold of some... That is the plan anyway.
Here's what it looks like now from infront of the the listening chairs.
I've added some acoustic absorbing foam and that really cleans up the reflection interference - gives a much cleaner sound. The foam is again in test stage so not so pretty yet.
fun and games...
They are 'only' working from 9000Hz up but what they brought to the party was a seemless integration with the upper mid horn and it just sounded right. I was so involved it in all I forgot to take any photos!
Prior to this test I had moved the position of the tweeter so it is above the big mid bass horn and below the upper mid horn. Things work much better like this. The image and focus of the music is improved.
I've also been making some more flexible and permanent stands. The two stage wood ones were just lashed up from off cuts of wood I've had in the garage.
Each stand started out as a pack of steel square tubing
Checking heights and dimensions
Now added more tubes and temporary hangers for the horns
You don't see much stand from the front
I might paint them in same finish as the horns (when I get around to finishing them) or the same colour as the walls - not decided yet. Black primer for now.
At this stage I have just 'hung' the horns using ratchet straps to make it adjustable height and time alignment wise.
Now I am making some large upbolts to carry the horns.
I have quite a lot of adjustment room for raising the mid horn and upper mid to squeeze longer Ribbon tweeter in should I be able to get hold of some... That is the plan anyway.
Here's what it looks like now from infront of the the listening chairs.
I've added some acoustic absorbing foam and that really cleans up the reflection interference - gives a much cleaner sound. The foam is again in test stage so not so pretty yet.
fun and games...
Last edited:
time for an update
I've been reading up on Le Cleac'h and tractrix horns a bit and also tested the same thing Mr Coco tried with pipe foam
Having taped it up to ensure smooth transitions I liked the results. Slightly smoother and
silky is how I would describe it.
I am looking into to making a Le Cleac'h horn profile next to try that. For practicality I will do the upper mid (crossing at 1250Hz and up).
But before I start the full Le Cleac'h project (still reading up on that one) let see if we can eek out even more performance out of the conicals...
Having spent a bit more time with the on foam rolled mouth terminations on the Mid upper horns (crossing at 1250Hz up) and having had a good look at this thread
about Le Cleac'h profiles vs others...
This one is linked to and shows a simulation of what it might look like
LeCleac'h horn vs Conical Horn
This one that Mr Coco sent me does some practical tests and shows some measurements.
Anyway I taped the foam on to the horns to ensure careful smooth termination. Upon more listening I liked the result. Slightly smoother and silky - nice.
Having spent quite a lot of time fiddling with the foam I bit the bullet and in not much more time make a permanent solution.
12 pieces compound angle cut to fit (table saw )
Spent a while rounding and we have
Back with driver loaded and in place on the stand.
Can't test yet as the 2nd one is in the workshop with the pieces gluing. More shaping work tomorrow morning and then listening tests in the afternoon.
Fun and games.
I've been reading up on Le Cleac'h and tractrix horns a bit and also tested the same thing Mr Coco tried with pipe foam
Having taped it up to ensure smooth transitions I liked the results. Slightly smoother and
silky is how I would describe it.
I am looking into to making a Le Cleac'h horn profile next to try that. For practicality I will do the upper mid (crossing at 1250Hz and up).
But before I start the full Le Cleac'h project (still reading up on that one) let see if we can eek out even more performance out of the conicals...
Having spent a bit more time with the on foam rolled mouth terminations on the Mid upper horns (crossing at 1250Hz up) and having had a good look at this thread
about Le Cleac'h profiles vs others...
This one is linked to and shows a simulation of what it might look like
LeCleac'h horn vs Conical Horn
This one that Mr Coco sent me does some practical tests and shows some measurements.
Anyway I taped the foam on to the horns to ensure careful smooth termination. Upon more listening I liked the result. Slightly smoother and silky - nice.
Having spent quite a lot of time fiddling with the foam I bit the bullet and in not much more time make a permanent solution.
12 pieces compound angle cut to fit (table saw )
Spent a while rounding and we have
Back with driver loaded and in place on the stand.
Can't test yet as the 2nd one is in the workshop with the pieces gluing. More shaping work tomorrow morning and then listening tests in the afternoon.
Fun and games.
Last edited:
Aw thanks CLS.
Now there is a pair and they are plumbed in and playing.
Pictured together here first
First impressions
Definitely smooths something nicely on the vocals (test track Piano and vocals only of Jose James and Jef Neve).
God - I'll have to do the mid horns now...
Now on a Bach Kantaten (large'ish coral piece), hmm here the difference is quite marked! The upper mids are integrating better.
Soprano is improved also.
They always sounded very alive and on occasion a bit too so, for the rest to keep up.
It was always build a system around that first horn / 2435 pair I made, that could keep up.
I thought it was probably the 2435Be driver and perhaps to an extent it is but now it is just that little bit sweeter and yes even more realistic.
I am NOT imagining this improvement.
The rolled up magazine and tea towel trick.
I love this hobby!
Now there is a pair and they are plumbed in and playing.
Pictured together here first
First impressions
Definitely smooths something nicely on the vocals (test track Piano and vocals only of Jose James and Jef Neve).
God - I'll have to do the mid horns now...
Now on a Bach Kantaten (large'ish coral piece), hmm here the difference is quite marked! The upper mids are integrating better.
Soprano is improved also.
They always sounded very alive and on occasion a bit too so, for the rest to keep up.
It was always build a system around that first horn / 2435 pair I made, that could keep up.
I thought it was probably the 2435Be driver and perhaps to an extent it is but now it is just that little bit sweeter and yes even more realistic.
I am NOT imagining this improvement.
The rolled up magazine and tea towel trick.
I love this hobby!
Last edited:
thanks - I agree they do look a lot nicer.
The wife likes them more too. Spurred on by that and the fact the Raal Lazy Ribbons did not arrive today I bit the bullet and launched into doing the bigger mid horns...
Phew, pretty much a solid days work...
1st one back on the stand
2nd one will get the final rub down in a few minutes and be reassembled and lifted back into place.
The stands and U-bolts work brilliantly for easy on off - convenient for Scalford (I hope we are still on for that)...
Looking forward to seeing if they sound any different - They do look much nicer indeed.
Question is what to do with the bass horns - probably little sound gain at those freqs but it would look nicer...
The wife likes them more too. Spurred on by that and the fact the Raal Lazy Ribbons did not arrive today I bit the bullet and launched into doing the bigger mid horns...
Phew, pretty much a solid days work...
1st one back on the stand
2nd one will get the final rub down in a few minutes and be reassembled and lifted back into place.
The stands and U-bolts work brilliantly for easy on off - convenient for Scalford (I hope we are still on for that)...
Looking forward to seeing if they sound any different - They do look much nicer indeed.
Question is what to do with the bass horns - probably little sound gain at those freqs but it would look nicer...
Last edited:
here are the Raal Lazy Ribbon Tweeters ... Supplied by Advanced Loudspeakers.
Plonked at about right height last night.
I still Need to raise the upper mids and mids some more.
A little foam under the upper mid horn, on the 14ohm tap (most efficient) and off we go.
Crossover is 2nd order 9000Hz.
How do they sound - well, like with the ones I tested briefly, they just integrate effortlessly and take over where the upper mid 2435Be's leave off. It's that simple. Seamless. Upper register Violins are so sweet, soprano vocals very pure and clear. Def worth the effort, money and wait. Can't want for more really - apart from better setting up and that's part of the fun.
The JBL2405's aren't bad but these are in a difference league.
Now I need to calm down a bit for a while I think... and just listen.
But a few things on the to do list are:
1. Raise the horns a bit more
2. Time align properly
3. Try LR crossover on the tapped horns
4. Try a SET on the Raal's & acquire said if it does the business
Plonked at about right height last night.
I still Need to raise the upper mids and mids some more.
A little foam under the upper mid horn, on the 14ohm tap (most efficient) and off we go.
Crossover is 2nd order 9000Hz.
How do they sound - well, like with the ones I tested briefly, they just integrate effortlessly and take over where the upper mid 2435Be's leave off. It's that simple. Seamless. Upper register Violins are so sweet, soprano vocals very pure and clear. Def worth the effort, money and wait. Can't want for more really - apart from better setting up and that's part of the fun.
The JBL2405's aren't bad but these are in a difference league.
Now I need to calm down a bit for a while I think... and just listen.
But a few things on the to do list are:
1. Raise the horns a bit more
2. Time align properly
3. Try LR crossover on the tapped horns
4. Try a SET on the Raal's & acquire said if it does the business
Last edited:
I decided to try out some plug and play DSP / Anti-mode room correction on the Tapped horns.
I got a couple of Anti-Mode 8033C's and plugged in.
After some to'ing and fro'ing with cal inc crossover and excluding it, I found cal with no crossover and then using the crossover to sound best.
I also got a mic and phantom / pre so I can measure to my hearts content.
Here's how it measures with correction and the horn mouth improvements...
Here is how it measured before all those things
The tapped horn correction is brilliant in room - takes away the boom I had on 5 string bass B - 31Hz and fills in the bits that were missing.
Well worth it.
also....
I've been using my new mic and phantom power/pre to do time aligning - lots of learning about Holmresp to do this was needed.
I have now done all 8 (4 each side). Got the hang of it more and more and understanding it.
I doubt / hope I will not need to do it again at Scalford. I have marked each driver to frame clamp up for reference so it should be just align the marks and clamp.
Can easily do just the HF end to show you though / check it.
True the listening spot(s) will change in length but you'd be talking such small time delays - not worth bothering about.
Doing takes about 2 hrs but would be quicker next time / with helpers to move the drivers back and forth.
So how does it sound now. Having loosely time aligned by measuring to approx diaphragm and then tried to listen to pink noise / white noise and not really getting very far (might be ok if you can electronically delay and listen from the chair as you do it), no good getting up moving a driver and sitting down again...
Well, it is crystallised the timing and coherence beyond what it was before. Useful gain again.
All the peak wave fronts line up so for example when a snare drum is hit all the drivers making that sound (as they overlap) are making that sound at the same time distance from my ear. Sound from all the drivers arrives at the same time to me ear and there is little (no) out of alignment / cancellation of the wave. That's how I understand it any way.
I had lots of trial and error in making the measurements & learning the tool but did not try to listen to anything until all were as good as I could get.
I think I had well and truly lost the approx by ear settings anyway.
My ears are telling me this was VERY worth while indeed.
I am still a fraction away form getting the mid and mid bass perfect on the LH side. I need to modify my stand to allow the mid bass horn to be even further forward at little. TBH as it's 0.3 ms I doubt I'd hear it, and it is not the HF stuff where I guess it is most critical.
I was a bit lazy in remembering to lock the first highest to zero each time but as long as both are done to the same reference (not nec. zero) should be good.
Improvements or pointers on anything I'm doing wrong welcome - I'm just learning to use these tools...
I got a couple of Anti-Mode 8033C's and plugged in.
After some to'ing and fro'ing with cal inc crossover and excluding it, I found cal with no crossover and then using the crossover to sound best.
I also got a mic and phantom / pre so I can measure to my hearts content.
Here's how it measures with correction and the horn mouth improvements...
Here is how it measured before all those things
The tapped horn correction is brilliant in room - takes away the boom I had on 5 string bass B - 31Hz and fills in the bits that were missing.
Well worth it.
also....
I've been using my new mic and phantom power/pre to do time aligning - lots of learning about Holmresp to do this was needed.
I have now done all 8 (4 each side). Got the hang of it more and more and understanding it.
I doubt / hope I will not need to do it again at Scalford. I have marked each driver to frame clamp up for reference so it should be just align the marks and clamp.
Can easily do just the HF end to show you though / check it.
True the listening spot(s) will change in length but you'd be talking such small time delays - not worth bothering about.
Doing takes about 2 hrs but would be quicker next time / with helpers to move the drivers back and forth.
So how does it sound now. Having loosely time aligned by measuring to approx diaphragm and then tried to listen to pink noise / white noise and not really getting very far (might be ok if you can electronically delay and listen from the chair as you do it), no good getting up moving a driver and sitting down again...
Well, it is crystallised the timing and coherence beyond what it was before. Useful gain again.
All the peak wave fronts line up so for example when a snare drum is hit all the drivers making that sound (as they overlap) are making that sound at the same time distance from my ear. Sound from all the drivers arrives at the same time to me ear and there is little (no) out of alignment / cancellation of the wave. That's how I understand it any way.
I had lots of trial and error in making the measurements & learning the tool but did not try to listen to anything until all were as good as I could get.
I think I had well and truly lost the approx by ear settings anyway.
My ears are telling me this was VERY worth while indeed.
I am still a fraction away form getting the mid and mid bass perfect on the LH side. I need to modify my stand to allow the mid bass horn to be even further forward at little. TBH as it's 0.3 ms I doubt I'd hear it, and it is not the HF stuff where I guess it is most critical.
I was a bit lazy in remembering to lock the first highest to zero each time but as long as both are done to the same reference (not nec. zero) should be good.
Improvements or pointers on anything I'm doing wrong welcome - I'm just learning to use these tools...
Last edited:
Nice work. It does take a lot of work to learn this and get the measurement techniques you want, but as you say, well worth while.
Don't forget to lock the time, but if you don't, you can cheat it. As long as audio stream stays on (it usually does) then you can auto align the measurement of one driver, take a look at it's offset samples and then type that same offset into the other measurements.
I usually round of the fractions when doing this.
The alignment and phase you can achieve with a tool like HOLM is a huge help. I can sotra-kinda get there by ear, but the results with measurements are so much better. and that I CAN hear. Keep up the good work!
Don't forget to lock the time, but if you don't, you can cheat it. As long as audio stream stays on (it usually does) then you can auto align the measurement of one driver, take a look at it's offset samples and then type that same offset into the other measurements.
I usually round of the fractions when doing this.
The alignment and phase you can achieve with a tool like HOLM is a huge help. I can sotra-kinda get there by ear, but the results with measurements are so much better. and that I CAN hear. Keep up the good work!