monaural stereophonics

[hobby1]

hi,

I was very intrigued by this configuration

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/links.htm#The Inaudible Loudspeake

after reading the various links I realized that the idea is to add 2 omniwave which do not radiate in the same axis to avoid comb filtering or interference ,knowing that the 2 speakers receive the same signal without further processing, I do not understand the purpose of such a configuration?
here the patent link

http://www.patsnap.com/patents/view/WO2006100250A2.html

can it be a "line array like" radiating mode?
or a line spot rather than sweet spot?
is it use the on wall mounting to make a big sound screen?
what do you think about that??

 

[graaf]

ok, all right, I have calmed down 🙂

so basically it's a flooder - nice that someone else is trying 😀

however the monaural stereophony theory is just stupid 😉

 

[graaf]

and the fact that the guy chose for his business logo a sign that is also my diyaudio avatar is even quite funny 😛

 

[hobby1]

hi,

thanks for reply graaf,but why must you calmdown to answer me?
i hope i don't hurt anybody with my question!

if i was curious about that ,is that S. Linkwitz usualy propose good links,informative,innovative,and I thought I did not understand what was the interest of the "monaural stereophonic" ,or if there is one...

 

[graaf]

thanks for reply graaf,but why must you calmdown to answer me?

well, here is why: http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/121385-loudspeakers-room-system.html 😀

ok! I have read the patent - it's not a flooder stricto sensu but the principle is the same

just as the logo is the same, and even the name...

because I think that the essential identity is acknowledged indirectly even by Mr de Klerk himself, download the photo from the site: Bloomline Acoustics

then it's name appears - it is photo_fldr 😉 here is the same name - fldr for... flooder? funny isn't it? the guy has a sense of humour 😀

notice that what is shown on the pictures and described in the patent differs significantly from what was shown earlier at 2007 demostration

look carefully at the 2007 picture - what do You see on the floor by the tripods?
of course You can see two stereo flooders there! 😎 I marked them with red arrows 😀

apparently only later it was founded by Mr de Klerk that the 2007 tripod array can be turned upside down, that also down-firing pair of speakers can be used when working together with inside-firing pair

what I find quite funny but also quite satisfying is that the theory exposed in the demonstration and patent descriptions is essentially made of claims that I presented here on the forum:

1) the crucial factor for making better stereo is to hide the stereo speaker as a physical source of sound, to make it inaudible - onhoorbare luidspreker - unlocalisable for our hearing mechanism as distinct physical sound source in the room

2) the crucial factor for localisation of phantom sources is preservation of coherent transient shape patterns

3) the above conditions can be met by means of some counterintuitive placement of time coherent loudspeakers that results in omnidirectional polar pattern - but not idealistically over the entire frequency range as it's unnecessary - just over the frequency range that is critical in determination of transient and wave shape patterns

4) when the conditions 1) and 2) are met the position of the head may move relatively far away from this optimal position (often referred to as the sweet spot), (...) the sound image is more stable in space than with a usual setup

I am sure that Mr de Klerk started His project quite independently from me as His 2007 demonstration predates the start of my L&R thread

but equally I am sure that someone was reading the thread and is well aware of the essential identity of our concepts 😀


so yes - it works, although I believe that it works equally well in it's pure flooder simplicity, without the need of lower inside-firing pair of speakers

however without this additional pair it would be much harder to claim a legally required so called inventive step in the patent application 😉

regards,
graaf

ps. calling this monaural stereophony is stupid 😉

 

[hobby1]

ok, I have not read the whole topic but after what I read, the only common principle is the indirect radiation but the approaches are different, even opposite
the "Flooder"is a directive system, the "bloomline" is omni, "flooder" avoids reflections from the walls "bloomline" use it,I am not convinced that the listening result will be identical,but never heard any of them
if i understand what explain the patent,I think the principle of Mr. de Klerk is mainly based on the addition of two quasi-spherical radiation, and positioning of the speakers should just respect a rule,frontwaves meet at ear level, no matter which speaker radiates downward or toward the inside or outside

but I dont understand what it give ? ans this model Bloomline Acoustics on wall and no coherent radiation don't respect completely the principle?

 

[graaf]

ok, I have not read the whole topic but after what I read, the only common principle is the indirect radiation but the approaches are different, even opposite
the "Flooder"is a directive system (...) "flooder" avoids reflections from the walls (...)

not really, sort of
well, truth is that the first phase of the L&R thread was a bit uhm... diplomatic for my part 😉
in effect after three years it can be a bit misleading, I apologize

a flooder is not necessary an 8 inches full range driver, a lot of various flooders were tested by forum users

even an ordinary two-way bookshelf speaker was tried in mono configuration

and even then it was an onhoorbare luidspreker 😀 unbelievable isn't it? it is really that simple 😎

if i understand what explain the patent,I think the principle of Mr. de Klerk is mainly based on the addition of two quasi-spherical radiation, and positioning of the speakers should just respect a rule,frontwaves meet at ear level, no matter which speaker radiates downward or toward the inside or outside

or upward... yes that's correct, it doesn't matter, in fact it doesn't even matter if there is the second pair radiating to the outside or inside at all

one pair of speakers radiating upwards suffices, short speakers, preferably very short, preferably coincident, preferably positioned against the wall

but I dont understand what it give ? ans this model Bloomline Acoustics on wall and no coherent radiation don't respect completely the principle?

the principle of the patent aims at disorientating our sense of hearing as to the position of the speakers as physical sources of sound in order to make the speaker onhoorbare as such
and this model on the picture strictly follows the principles of the patent

regards!
graaf

 

[Elias]

Has anyone tried this concept yet ? 🙂

I think it has some genious elements.

Mainly, for example, "The loudspeaker becomes audibly non-localizable"

project 184


In a conventional two speaker stereo triangle when signal is panned to either side a real sound source appears instead of phantom image. This results in localisation of the speaker itself, which sounds artificial and the situation we would like to avoid.

So by generating a phantom image also for side panned stereo sound it potentially results in more homogenous system.

 

[Elias]

Looks like this concept dates back much earlier !

In Top Audio & Video show in Italy in 1999 was introduced Pearl Audio Technology Eliptica loudspeakers.

2 tweeters, one located at the bottom and the other at the top. Creates a vertical phantom image.

Interesting.

Wonder why it is not popular ?

 

[justanalogue]

Heard the Bloomline system last week end in a reverberant room in Schouwburg Almere and have to say I am impressed!
Mr. de Klerk was very open about how he constructed it and the ideas behind the patent.
Some systems are in use in pro audio, at least 1 as side fill in a musical and another one as FOH system for a classic play, hope they will visit the theatre this season!

Willem

 

[graaf]

Mr. de Klerk was very open about how he constructed it and the ideas behind the patent.

Can You share the information You got from Mr de Klerk? How does the loudspeaker work?

 

[graaf]

Looks like this concept dates back much earlier !

In Top Audio & Video show in Italy in 1999 was introduced Pearl Audio Technology Eliptica loudspeakers.

good, means that there are no potential patent issues as the invention is not new in the legal sense

2 tweeters, one located at the bottom and the other at the top. Creates a vertical phantom image.

Interesting.

yes, simple and clever, not very different from FCUFS but certainly much less setup dependent as the required vertical geometry is built into the design - the ceiling reflection working as a virtual second tweeter is just not needed anymore

OTOH there seem to have been problems with the proper execution of the clever idea:

The funniest thing about the sound of the Eliptica was the soundstage: it seemed like the singers were condemned to stay hanged on the ceiling 🙂
Absolutely wild. Thanks God, Pearl Audio Technology was displaying something more affordable and down to earth (and floor 🙂 ),

see: http://www.tnt-audio.com/shows/topav99r_e.html

Wonder why it is not popular ?

why is it not more successful? perhaps some business/patent issues

 

[devilsindetails]

Bloom Line Acoustics "The inaudible loudspeaker" ???

Good Grief! What's next, the "non-loudspeaker"?????

 

[Elias]

OTOH there seem to have been problems with the proper execution of the clever idea:

see: Top Audio & Video 99

I don't trust that review source much. They appear more like a tongue at cheek commentary rather than a description of the sound.

There should be no reason why the singer would be perceived at the ceiling if both bottom and top tweeters are outputting the same SPL. Why the upper half plane would dominate, it will not.

On the other hand from conventional flooders we know they can project the sounds at the ceiling if there is no correct balance between the direct sound and the ceiling reflection 😉


I say 'conventional flooder', that is hilarious 😀 Things are already that advanced 😛