Hi all. I'm doing an econowave-ish build with the parts available to me, so I've ended up with a Celestion CDX1-1745 (out of QSC HPR122i) attached to the 10" conical CD waveguide.
Very nice and detailed so far, and it appears to load down to about 2khz although since my shiny new preamp hasn't got here yet, I can't confirm this with measurements yet.
Initially, I used a Beyma woofer, but that exhibited some nasty (and audible!) effects of stored energy and cone breakup just after 1khz. Now, I've shoved a pair of cheapo cast Skytronic woofers in a random box and plonked the waveguide on top...since they go higher, it sounds much nicer despite the lack of bass.
I'm now on the hunt for a 8" woofer available in the UK which can make it to 1.8-2.0khz without getting ugly. I haven't built the cabinet yet so T/S parameters don't really matter, and a steep crossover slope and EQ is easily possible as I'm biamping with a DBX Driverack.
Looking at the Eminence Beta 8A, although I'm worried about the low Fs as I'd like to use this without a sub. My musical tastes lean towards blues, rock and metal so they don't need to go terrifically low though. Otherwise, the Audax AP210Z0 is looking nice, but I can't quite tell from the blurry PDF where the 1st breakup mode lies.
Oh, almost forgot...my budget's about £80 for the pair. Thanks for any replies or advice!
Very nice and detailed so far, and it appears to load down to about 2khz although since my shiny new preamp hasn't got here yet, I can't confirm this with measurements yet.
Initially, I used a Beyma woofer, but that exhibited some nasty (and audible!) effects of stored energy and cone breakup just after 1khz. Now, I've shoved a pair of cheapo cast Skytronic woofers in a random box and plonked the waveguide on top...since they go higher, it sounds much nicer despite the lack of bass.
I'm now on the hunt for a 8" woofer available in the UK which can make it to 1.8-2.0khz without getting ugly. I haven't built the cabinet yet so T/S parameters don't really matter, and a steep crossover slope and EQ is easily possible as I'm biamping with a DBX Driverack.
Looking at the Eminence Beta 8A, although I'm worried about the low Fs as I'd like to use this without a sub. My musical tastes lean towards blues, rock and metal so they don't need to go terrifically low though. Otherwise, the Audax AP210Z0 is looking nice, but I can't quite tell from the blurry PDF where the 1st breakup mode lies.
Oh, almost forgot...my budget's about £80 for the pair.
Thanks for any replies or advice!
Hi
Hope the Celestion's sounding good, am toying with the idea of checking it out myself.
I know you said your budget, but for a bit more you could get a pair of 8"s from the English Volt Studio Range.
I've been running a pair of these for years, and if you invest in something that good you won't even THINK about changing them probably EVER.
If your spending about £80 each on Celestions you should really have something to match them.
The Volts go from 30 Hz - 3.5K Hz , Have HUGE magnets, bucket loads of mid detail, spades full of bass, no stupid sub system needed, which if you get the Beta you'll probably be thinking you need 5 mins later.
In the long run you'll spend less money, and have them a lloonngg time.
I can recomend a perfect cabinet volume and dimension, I don't believe the cabs I have mine in could be any better.
I have had these speakers since the early 90's, banged the hell out of them in a studio, and there still going strong.
Cheers
Simon
Hope the Celestion's sounding good, am toying with the idea of checking it out myself.
I know you said your budget, but for a bit more you could get a pair of 8"s from the English Volt Studio Range.
I've been running a pair of these for years, and if you invest in something that good you won't even THINK about changing them probably EVER.
If your spending about £80 each on Celestions you should really have something to match them.
The Volts go from 30 Hz - 3.5K Hz , Have HUGE magnets, bucket loads of mid detail, spades full of bass, no stupid sub system needed, which if you get the Beta you'll probably be thinking you need 5 mins later.
In the long run you'll spend less money, and have them a lloonngg time.
I can recomend a perfect cabinet volume and dimension, I don't believe the cabs I have mine in could be any better.
I have had these speakers since the early 90's, banged the hell out of them in a studio, and there still going strong.
Cheers
Simon
May be a bit closer to your budget would be IMG Stageline / Monacor SP8/150 PRO.
Should go easily past 2kHz but may be not low enough for you but it could work nicely in a transmission line of sorts.
SP-8/150PRO - Stage Line compact PA bass speaker 300Wmax 150WRMS 8Ω - Europe Audio
or from amazon.de for €49 or £42 +p&p
Should go easily past 2kHz but may be not low enough for you but it could work nicely in a transmission line of sorts.
SP-8/150PRO - Stage Line compact PA bass speaker 300Wmax 150WRMS 8Ω - Europe Audio
or from amazon.de for €49 or £42 +p&p
Thanks for the replies and glowing recommendation for the Volts. I'll look into them - I haven't noticed their Studio range yet, only seen the 8 inchers intended for horn-loaded midrange for some reason. Unfortunately I've got a feeling that they're going to be outside my budget though.
I've been offered a pair of RCF L8S800 for a nice price, although the high Fs is a bit offputting. Got a feeling it's designed for power handling at the expense of bandwidth. Thoughts?
Coming from a pro sound background, I've always dismissed anything with a Stage Line badge on it, probably to my loss by the sounds of it! That SP8 looks rather nice, and it is indeed closer to my budget although I'd like to stick to a sealed or reflex alignment for size reasons. Plenty of Xmax though, so with some EQ dialed in on the Driverack there should be ample bass. I think.
I do like it loud occasionally, but it doesn't take much power to get it there as my listening room is rather small, hence the use of an 8" woofer to keep the footprint down. Thanks for the tip about the alu voice coils, I didn't know that.
I managed to get the Celestions lightly used for rather cheap...only £50 for the pair, as I was originally intending to go with the cheaper CDX1-1425.
The QSC 10" WG is a bit of an oddball in that there's threaded inserts for the driver to bolt on, rather than the usual bare holes. I had to do a lot of chopping and drilling to get a bolt to go through...just a bit of advice for anyone else wanting to try it!
I've been offered a pair of RCF L8S800 for a nice price, although the high Fs is a bit offputting. Got a feeling it's designed for power handling at the expense of bandwidth. Thoughts?
Coming from a pro sound background, I've always dismissed anything with a Stage Line badge on it, probably to my loss by the sounds of it! That SP8 looks rather nice, and it is indeed closer to my budget although I'd like to stick to a sealed or reflex alignment for size reasons. Plenty of Xmax though, so with some EQ dialed in on the Driverack there should be ample bass. I think.
I do like it loud occasionally, but it doesn't take much power to get it there as my listening room is rather small, hence the use of an 8" woofer to keep the footprint down. Thanks for the tip about the alu voice coils, I didn't know that.
I managed to get the Celestions lightly used for rather cheap...only £50 for the pair, as I was originally intending to go with the cheaper CDX1-1425.
The QSC 10" WG is a bit of an oddball in that there's threaded inserts for the driver to bolt on, rather than the usual bare holes. I had to do a lot of chopping and drilling to get a bolt to go through...just a bit of advice for anyone else wanting to try it!
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Hi munkeyQ
Don't get high Fs GET VOLT !
Cab dimensions perfect.
You could spend the price of a Volt in one banzi nite out !
Stay in for a couple of weekends and get them, you won't regret it.
Stage line...PAH
Made for s*** h*** clubs where everyones deaf.
I've had the Volts for 20 years which is 7300 nites.
At £100 a nite out that's £730,000
Can't believe Charles Darwin isn't backing me up on the Volts.
They are the 'Origin of the Spieces'
Simon
Don't get high Fs GET VOLT !
Cab dimensions perfect.
You could spend the price of a Volt in one banzi nite out !
Stay in for a couple of weekends and get them, you won't regret it.
Stage line...PAH
Made for s*** h*** clubs where everyones deaf.
I've had the Volts for 20 years which is 7300 nites.
At £100 a nite out that's £730,000
Can't believe Charles Darwin isn't backing me up on the Volts.
They are the 'Origin of the Spieces'
Simon
My nights out don't cost more than £25. Point taken though, Volts are seriously nice noisemakers. Cheapest I've found them for online is £180 for the pair which is unfortunately well over double my meagre budget at present time, being a student and all.
Any more thoughts on the Audax AP210Z0 (clicky link)...wondering if anyone's used it? 1st breakup mode looks avoidable with an aggressive crossover slope.
Otherwise, the Stage Line driver looks hopeful, as long as there's no pitfalls.
Thanks again for the help.
Point taken though, Volts are seriously nice noisemakers. Cheapest I've found them for online is £180 for the pair which is unfortunately well over double my meagre budget at present time, being a student and all.Any more thoughts on the Audax AP210Z0 (clicky link)...wondering if anyone's used it? 1st breakup mode looks avoidable with an aggressive crossover slope.
Otherwise, the Stage Line driver looks hopeful, as long as there's no pitfalls.
Thanks again for the help.
A pair of those Volts will cost you 0.61p per day for the next 365 days.
After that you can listen to them for free for the next 20 years.
And you will probably have better speakers than any one else you know.
If you bought studio monitors off the shelf you would not better them unless you spent £2-3000 in my opinion.
Simon
After that you can listen to them for free for the next 20 years.
And you will probably have better speakers than any one else you know.
If you bought studio monitors off the shelf you would not better them unless you spent £2-3000 in my opinion.
Simon
I have no problems recommending Volts as Simon knows well!
Using a pair myself and couldn't be happier, except may be with 15"s rather than 12"s but size is a consideration. Sadly…
Not a great fan of Monacor/Stageline myself but I have never heard anything but glowing reviews/opinions of this particular driver and one Volt could easily bust your budget for two drivers.
A tl for this would be roughly between 35 and 45L depending on tuning. They roll off at around 6dB/oct from Fs. Sealed boxes roll off at 12dB/oct and ported at 24dB so there would still be a good amount of bass down to the 30s.
Using a pair myself and couldn't be happier, except may be with 15"s rather than 12"s but size is a consideration. Sadly…
Not a great fan of Monacor/Stageline myself but I have never heard anything but glowing reviews/opinions of this particular driver and one Volt could easily bust your budget for two drivers.
A tl for this would be roughly between 35 and 45L depending on tuning. They roll off at around 6dB/oct from Fs. Sealed boxes roll off at 12dB/oct and ported at 24dB so there would still be a good amount of bass down to the 30s.
THE ART OF SOUND PERFECTION BY SEAS - H1471-08 CA22RNY
Might be worth considering, although it isn't particularly cheap.
The same goes for these two
Peerless - Woofers HDS NOM - Europe Audio
The peerless ones would measure far better then the Audax and have better specs too.
RS225S-8 - Dayton Shielded Woofer 8 inch - Europe Audio
Is an absolute steal performance-wise, the only issue is the break up associated with a metal cone and the associated raised distortion products further down the spectrum. That said, the RS225 is very clean up to about 1k where distortion starts to increase, I wouldn't mind betting however that the RS225 would still be cleaner up to 2k then the AP210.
I have the paper coned version of the AP210Z and it is really nothing to write home about. For the price I suppose it isn't bad (Depends how much you're paying for them though!) but I wouldn't want to use them in anything, I'd rather save a few pennies and buy the Dayton.
Might be worth considering, although it isn't particularly cheap.
The same goes for these two
Peerless - Woofers HDS NOM - Europe Audio
The peerless ones would measure far better then the Audax and have better specs too.
RS225S-8 - Dayton Shielded Woofer 8 inch - Europe Audio
Is an absolute steal performance-wise, the only issue is the break up associated with a metal cone and the associated raised distortion products further down the spectrum. That said, the RS225 is very clean up to about 1k where distortion starts to increase, I wouldn't mind betting however that the RS225 would still be cleaner up to 2k then the AP210.
I have the paper coned version of the AP210Z and it is really nothing to write home about. For the price I suppose it isn't bad (Depends how much you're paying for them though!) but I wouldn't want to use them in anything, I'd rather save a few pennies and buy the Dayton.
Attachments
Thanks. I had my eye on a pair of AP210Z for £45. I'll stay away if they're nothing special. To be honest, I've got a search set up on ebay so I'm hoping to pick up a pair of Seas or something on there for less that retail.
Space Egg - quite a few Mission speakers used plastic basket woofers too, and I personally couldn't hear any colouration in them; they sounded like any other pair of budget bookshelves.
5th Element - thanks for the links. The RS225 does look good, and any ringing modes should be tameable with the Driverack.
(also, I've just noticed a spare pair of big magnet Kef B200s lying around. I'd be an optimist to say that a Bextrene cone could make it to 2k smoothly though...)
http://www.audax.com/archives/ap210z0.pdf
Space Egg - quite a few Mission speakers used plastic basket woofers too, and I personally couldn't hear any colouration in them; they sounded like any other pair of budget bookshelves.
5th Element - thanks for the links. The RS225 does look good, and any ringing modes should be tameable with the Driverack.
(also, I've just noticed a spare pair of big magnet Kef B200s lying around. I'd be an optimist to say that a Bextrene cone could make it to 2k smoothly though...)
http://www.audax.com/archives/ap210z0.pdf
£45 for a pair isn't a bad price, I'd still rather save though.
The fundamental of the resonance can be removed with a notch filter, that is true, but the harmonics created further down the spectrum cannot.
For example lets say the breakup is at 4khz. If you play a 1khz signal, the driver will naturally produce a 4khz tone as a result of its non linear behaviour, that would be the 4th order harmonic. The trouble is the cone also resonates at 4khz, so the 4th order distortion product of the 1khz tone @ 4khz will cause the cone to also ring and this increases the magnitude of the 4th order harmonic.
Don't be so quick to knock the budget aerogels, they are very good drivers for the price. The plastic basket really isn't an issue unless you like throwing your speakers around the room, and in fact, is better damped than a metal basket. It may not have the huge excursion of some other drivers, but what it does, it does very musically.
I'm not knocking them based off of any subjective qualities, rather the measured spec. I have used the budget 4" version a while back when maplin had a buyout! That thread brings back memories, the speakers are still in use today and sound great. Of course the driver back then cost £6 each and you can't go knocking that. Even then I think full retail price was about £14, which is still not a lot of money.
I have more recently though built a small floor stander around the RS125, these being a little bit more then twice as expensive as the AP100Z0. The difference in quality between the drivers is not small and this is from a subjective point of view. Of course the AP100Z0 speakers still rock the kitchen aplenty, I am very pleased with the way they sound and I enjoy them a lot.
However if I was going to be building a system that might be used for critical, extended listening, the Dayton RS line of mid/bass drivers would form the minimum basic requirement. You have to spend a considerable amount more to better the RS line if the bandwidth they excel at fits your intended application.
I have more recently though built a small floor stander around the RS125, these being a little bit more then twice as expensive as the AP100Z0. The difference in quality between the drivers is not small and this is from a subjective point of view. Of course the AP100Z0 speakers still rock the kitchen aplenty, I am very pleased with the way they sound and I enjoy them a lot.
However if I was going to be building a system that might be used for critical, extended listening, the Dayton RS line of mid/bass drivers would form the minimum basic requirement. You have to spend a considerable amount more to better the RS line if the bandwidth they excel at fits your intended application.
Pioneer B20GR30-51F 8" Butyl Surround Woofer
Right on budget, low FS, good response graph out to 2khz, 91db so you wont need to pad the CD down too much. Shipping might be prohibitive though?
Right on budget, low FS, good response graph out to 2khz, 91db so you wont need to pad the CD down too much. Shipping might be prohibitive though?
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Hi MunkeyQ
Sometimes in life luck & good fortune DOES happen !
You just got EXTREMELY lucky mate !
I'm pleased to hear you scored a top result.
You would have been wasting MDF with those plastic frame fisher price drivers like in your granny's Amstrad system !
AND it only cost you the price of 2 nites out !
Forget about all that T/S B.S
I've got 4 of those in the studio here.
Been banging the pants out of 'em for nearly 20 years.
You will NOT find a better driver PERIOD.
What kind of box do you want ?
I'm running 2 of mine in a reflex, and the other 2 in a transmission line.
Both boxes are tuned to perfection (or as near as that ever gets).
Have not a bad word to say about 'em, nor has ENYONE else in 20 years !
You are a very lucky MunkeyQ
Cheers
Simon
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