another post from a newb, sigh (or To Kit or not to Kit?)

[freakydrew]

I know, eh?
another newbie post asking about what speakers are right for me...must be a million of these posts!
this is part of the problem! i have sent a long time reading the posts and the posts and the posts!

I guess my question, in the end, is relatively simple - for my first build do I buy a kit with the parts or do I buy a bunch of parts and hope it works?

or do I just go buy some vintage speakers off of kijiji? just kidding, I would not be on this forum if that was what I wanted to do...

My descent into the world of all things audio began with headphones. From my reading on this forum and similar ones, speakers are a lot like headphones (duh - because they are speakers for your head!), in that everyone has an opinion and to simply ask "what should I buy?" can lead to 432 or more different answers so I am really not looking at specific products at this time.

I am just learning all about electronics and circuitry and all that fascinating stuff. I am excellent with a soldering iron and have a great set up for making all my own cables so the actual act of making a crossover is not scary (HOW to make a crossover properly is a different matter). Woodworking is also not a concern either, so I would only need the plans and a internal components.

What I am looking for is two nice speakers to listen to records on, that will be the only application for my first build. Do I be safe and go Parts-Express and buy something like this:
TriTrix MTM TL Components Kit

or do I try and find a my own tweeters, mids and woofers to make a nice 3-way and hope to figure out the crossover?

(p.s. any Canadians recommend a good online source?)

Help me please. this will be my first build and probably not my last, I just need to know which is "safest" - tried and tested kit, or everything from scratch?

thanks so much

and apologies if this exact thread exists because I missed it!

 

[AllenB]

Nothing wrong with the vintage route, in my opinion. Say you find some that you like the sound of for 2 dollars in a second hand shop. You then uprate some of the crossover components, play with the damping material inside, brace the panels, round the fronts, completely redesign the crossovers, change drivers, etc. etc., give them to a friend, do it again... It's probably how many of us learned.

 

[flaevor]

I would always recommend building a kit first, especially if you do not have measuring equipment.

Once you have done this, you will know what building a speaker entails. If your experience was like mine you will also realize there are a lot of little details you can improve upon next time, that are just related to the actual construction or finishing. Going with a kit saves a lot of time and guess work and if you are like most people on here your first build won't be your last.

 

[ScottG]

Most "kits" I'd stay away from.

Generally find a very well documented plan from some of the best designers. If you can't do the wood working yourself then have someone else do it for you provided you can get it done at the right price.

My suggestion would be the PMS:

Poor Man'

It's *very* well designed. (..and just about every designer that has done a wide curved design like this has liked the end-result.)
It has good bass extension for its size.
It's very well documented.
It has different tweeter options.
None of the drivers are terribly expensive.
The wood-working (cutting) is relatively easy for an experienced wood worker with a good table saw and router.
Efficiency is decent.
Impedance profile is relatively benign (..and should work well with a wide range of amplifiers.)
..etc.

You can even improve on the sound by using better capacitors (particularly for the smaller value capacitors).

 

[freakydrew]

Most "kits" I'd stay away from.

Generally find a very well documented plan from some of the best designers. If you can't do the wood working yourself then have someone else do it for you provided you can get it done at the right price.

My suggestion would be the PMS:

Poor Man'

It's *very* well designed. (..and just about every designer that has done a wide curved design like this has liked the end-result.)
It has good bass extension for its size.
It's very well documented.
It has different tweeter options.
None of the drivers are terribly expensive.
The wood-working (cutting) is relatively easy for an experienced wood worker with a good table saw and router.
Efficiency is decent.
Impedance profile is relatively benign (..and should work well with a wide range of amplifiers.)
..etc.

You can even improve on the sound by using better capacitors (particularly for the smaller value capacitors).

those are sexy!
although Poor Mans' appears a misnomer...what would these cost?

I appreciate all the help and once this bug catches I will be here a lot more begging for more help!

The idea of buying an old pair of speakers and playing around with the, seems to be the best idea for a first attempt. I am looking at a pair of Nikko's which comes with an amp for $50, hard to go wrong there.

fix them up, rebuild crossovers and keep my fingers crossed...then (hopefully) onto bigger and better things (like that so gorgeous Poor Mans!)

thanks again

 

[planet10]

I

Do I be safe and go Parts-Express and buy something like this:
TriTrix MTM TL Components Kit

Not particularily safe. It seems to be a poorly designd TL, and i've not seen any solid reviews on it.

For a 1st project go with something simple & well documented. As it won't likely be your last, you don't want to spend a lot of loonis.

Whether it is a kit or whether you buy the parts yourself makes little diference.

Can you build the boxes from scratch.

In Canada, Bob in Abbotsford has som parts kits.

dave

 

[ScottG]

those are sexy!
although Poor Mans' appears a misnomer...what would these cost?

I appreciate all the help and once this bug catches I will be here a lot more begging for more help!

The idea of buying an old pair of speakers and playing around with the, seems to be the best idea for a first attempt. I am looking at a pair of Nikko's which comes with an amp for $50, hard to go wrong there.

fix them up, rebuild crossovers and keep my fingers crossed...then (hopefully) onto bigger and better things (like that so gorgeous Poor Mans!)

thanks again

Well, understanding that the commercial Stradivari Homage is around 40 thousand.. "poor mans" is rather accurate. (..though frankly they are closer to the Elipse in design than the Stradavari.)

You can price the drivers out at Madisound, but I'd expect the total to be around 400 US.

Partsexpress has the crossover components from Jantzen Audio, expect a minimum of 200 total for it.

Then materials and labor for box construction.

The result even with some nice maple veneer should be less than a thousand US.

If you need something cheap that is still DIY then consider Zaph's BAMTM:
Zaph|Audio - Bargain Aluminum MTM

If money is really tight then consider a fullrange design based on this driver:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?PartNumber=292-430
Godzilla has some pages devoted to it's predecessor as does Nelson Pass and Co..
http://www.zillaaudio.com/diy-speaker-building.htm
http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/art_cs_amps.pdf
(page 23)

 

[planet10]

If money is really tight then consider a fullrange design based on this driver:

Jury is still out on that new driver, but they are cheap, hopefully we'll see thm (or something else -- Wild Burro also has a cheap 8"). There are lots of choices for full-range drivers (i tend to favour smaller ones) and lots of proven designs. Hard to beat a good FR system for the money (and often even for a lot more money)

The Ellipsa was the 1st commercial multi-way that got my attention for a long time. But $20k leaves a lot of room for the DIYer.

dave

 

[MichaelPublic]

Had I the chance to do it over; I would try a well reviewed kit first, something 2 way from Parts Express perhaps? or a pair of Radio Shack minimus 7's and build a crossover from scratch.
Maybe
Wharfedale Diamond II or III from classifieds, with about 50 watts to drive them, maybe build a new crossover for them?
Of course if you have a shop and space to have a system in 3 or 4 rooms then go for it and please post pics of your creations.

 

[flaevor]

Most "kits" I'd stay away from.

Generally find a very well documented plan from some of the best designers.

I suppose I should have qualified my statement. When I said "kit" I meant a speaker that is already designed. It could be a design like the PMS or some other well documented design. I can't comment on the Parts Express kits but the kits from the German outlets are usually well thought out and include everything but cabinets, so when he said kit I assumed no cabinets included.

 

[freakydrew]

I am so torn!! (insert dramatic music)...

The cabinet making for me is the easiest component, basically I can figure out how to follow a plan or look at at a finished speaker box and reproduce it somewhat close to the original. I am no master cabinet maker, but have the tools and basic skill level required.

I think because of this, and following the excellent advise provided, I will take the time to do my research, re-aquaint myself with basic electronics and develop that aspect (lol...breadboard kit arrived in the mail today, made and LED blink woot woot), and once I am comfortable with the electronics side of things then start buying the components. As much as I would love just to go buy things now and follow a well documented kit, I want to know what it is I am doing. I want to understand the flow and amplification of sound and all that stuff. Anyone can build something from Ikea, I want to know what I am doing.
Once my knowledge level has increased to a place where I can read some of the more technical posts in this forum and understand what is being talked about, then I will be ready for some serious speaker building!
also gives me time to look for sales and really know what I am after....
my wife thinks this patience route will not last and fully expects to see speaker components showing up at the door anyday...

thanks again and I look forward to getting more amazing help soon!

 

[ScottG]

FRD Consortium

 

[AllenB]

I will take the time to do my research, re-aquaint myself with basic electronics and develop that aspect

For crossovers, you might look at the following (if you don't know already):

Resistance
Current
Voltage
Ohms Law (the relationship between the above three)
Voltage drops and voltage dividers
Resistors in series and parallel
AC theory
Reactive components (inductance and capacitance)
Resonance (especially between inductance and capacitance)
Damping (where resonance energy is absorbed)

There's more, of course, but this is a good start.

 

[freakydrew]

thanks for all the help, I have been diving headfirst into electronics, I remembered less than I thought I knew!! Everything make so much more sense now and continues to make sense as I learn more. I am just about finished converting an ATX power supply into a variable DC power supply to test some electronics kits I bought to get familiar with everything.

But in the meantime....I am yearning for speakers! So hard not to put the cart before the horse, but no harm in starting to shop...??...so my plan is to build my own cabinets. Do I shop online and local yard sales etc for vintage speakers and drivers to use or is buying new the safest route? what I read is nothing beats that vintage sound...BUT...brand new always works!

I am also torn between two way with separate sub or 2X3 way speakers?

thanks

 

[knifeinthesink]

First of all, check out solen.ca for your speaker parts. They are in Quebec and the prices are comparable to the us retailers without the customs worries.

I have purchased from Madisound and had no nasty surprises from customs but you never know.

Solen carries the Dayton reference series drivers and I doubt anyone here would disagree that you will not find many drivers that offer better value. You owe it to yourself to research these a little. They were quite a phenomenon when they first came out and still are amongst the best deals available. I would build John Marsh's modula mt or the Nat P mtm. ZaphAudio also has a cool floor stander using these. Also at Zaph's site are many designs that would be well suited to a first build. If you want a kit, he has supplied Madisound wth a few. I think the SR71 kit looks amazing. Like the Daytons, you really should read up on the seas tdfc. It has a terrific reputation. The woofers are some of the very best available at a decent price.

While your looking at these you will likely learn about many other projects.

A couple of suggestions:

Jump in and build something but keep it relatively simple. You can get caught up researching forever but you cant beat building something for learning.

Don't mess around with vintage speakers or doing your own crossovers until you have built something. You want to start with a positive to give you a taste of the possibilities. Speaker design is crazy complicated and there are great designs out there by people with decades of experience.

Find out who does driver distortion testing and read everything you can from those sites. start with ZaphAudio, Mark K, and John Marsh. John has some of the best posts on the process of speaker building on the whole web, in my opinion. Here's one HTGuide Forum - View Single Post - M8ta - Fun or Work? ;-)

Enjoy

 

[AllenB]

I am yearning for speakers! So hard not to put the cart before the horse

Speakers are the smart place to spend the most time, effort and expense. Your electronics knowledge is still needed here, and one day you can build your own amps, but the speakers are where you make the biggest difference.

what I read is nothing beats that vintage sound...

Manufacturing attitudes have changed over the years. If you have the skills, you can build your own that is better than either the typical vintage or modern mass market speakers.

I am also torn between two way with separate sub or 2X3 way speakers?

I would definately recommend you build good two ways rather than three ways. Be reasonable with the bass response of them rather than trying to extend too far. Extend the bass with some subs.

This way, you can put the subs where they will have the best effect with the standing waves in your room, and the mains where they will be best for imaging.

 

[planet10]

Speakers are the smart place to spend the most time, effort and expense.

A widely held belief that i do not ascribe to. This belief undervalues the importance of the rest of the system. (and lets not forget the importance of the room in the system)

It is a conumdrum that, even given that the loudspeaker can have the most effect on the overall flavour of a system, that a modestly priced, honest, emotionally communicative loudspeaker can be part of a system that gets better & better as the upstream kit gets better, it rarely works the other way round.

A hifi is a system. Everything is important,

I would definately recommend you build good two ways rather than three ways.

At low frequencies the room dominates, and it is a rare room that will have the optimal placement of the MR+HF and the LF co-incident. It makes sense to have 7-8 octave "satelittes" with seoarate support below that.

Given the weakness of even the best crossovers, a good 2-way will have the XO point as low as possible (to my mind <350 Hz), The typical cone/dome 2-way puts the XO in the worst possible place. With the quality of the best full/wide range available today, one can easily dispense with the XOs completely and go with a 1-way. If cost is an issue this last is surely the way to go,

Authoritive, yet finessed bass costs money. To overcome the room uually requires at least 2 woofers. They will of necessity be active, with their own amplifiers and the XO in front of the amplifier where it is much easier to get it right (and at those frequencies also cheaper than passive parts.

dave

 

[AllenB]

A widely held belief that i do not ascribe to. This belief undervalues the importance of the rest of the system. (and lets not forget the importance of the room in the system)

No, I do agree as it turns out. I stressed this point to put freakydrew's mind at ease about getting to work on the speakers. As for your point, speaker building...room acoustics.... the line has become a little blurred for me these days. I kept my answer short...thanks for clarifying.

 

[freakydrew]

such great information! thanks!
so do I put new woofers and tweeters in the speakers or shop around for quality vintage components? or go with the best possible deal that fits my needs/budget.

I am getting excited about cabinet design and construction and was going to use biscuit cutter but research has led me to dowels, which is new concept for me and also fascinating!

 

[planet10]

... I stressed this point to put freakydrew's mind at ease about getting to work on the speakers...

An honourable motive

dave