I'm looking at putting together a dipole speaker, but I don't want to mess around with building a crossover or dealing with equalization. So basically I need a full Ranger with >.5 qts and I plan on using a sweeter tweeter on top. Around 50hz fs would due. Heres the kicker I dont want to spend more than $100-$150 per speaker. Less would be preferable.
Thanks advance for any ideas...Lee
Thanks advance for any ideas...Lee
Go to Radio Shack and look at their 8" full-range drivers. You will probably have to turn the "treble" knob on your reciever up all the way, but the bass is there.
They currently have two models, both with foam surrounds and whizzers. One is paper cone, one is poly cone. I'd probably go with the poly cone version.
I don't have the specs for them anymore, but it seems like Fs is around 40hz. I know that when I built my dipole with them (2 per box) I got a surprising amount of bass, and it's very fast, light, open, and powerful bass, although with limited max SPL. Mine use paper surrounds though, so no doubt the foam versions with the higher excursion, will fare better.
The drivers can be had for ~20 USD.
They currently have two models, both with foam surrounds and whizzers. One is paper cone, one is poly cone. I'd probably go with the poly cone version.
I don't have the specs for them anymore, but it seems like Fs is around 40hz. I know that when I built my dipole with them (2 per box) I got a surprising amount of bass, and it's very fast, light, open, and powerful bass, although with limited max SPL. Mine use paper surrounds though, so no doubt the foam versions with the higher excursion, will fare better.
The drivers can be had for ~20 USD.
This driver looks like it may fit the bill..
Moth Audio Cicada Driver
Moth Audio Cicada Driver
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
I've heard great things about the Jordan drivers, but the total q at .4 looks as if it will require some equalization.
Lets say it does. Could I just use this passive circuit below from linkwitz's site and plug it in between my cd and amp. Looks like a total of 5 components, should be fairly easy to implement.
Lets say it does. Could I just use this passive circuit below from linkwitz's site and plug it in between my cd and amp. Looks like a total of 5 components, should be fairly easy to implement.
The Qts requirement for dipoles
I'm a novice to speaker design, so bear with me.
I've read that drivers for dipole speakers should have a Qt > 0.5. If I use theJordan JX92S for all but the lowest frequencies, and have a separate 12" or 15" driver for the bass, does the Qts limit apply to the Jordan too? Or only for the woofer?
Adding another twist, if I build a dipole mid+tweeter using a JX92S and a tweeter, and get the bass (say, 200Hz and below) from a sealed box with two push-push drivers as discussed elsewhere on this forum and at http://www.aloha-audio.com/ME2txt.html , then does this Qts limit apply to the Jordan?
Any comments, even stray thoughts and observations, welcome. What I've described above is the speaker I'd like to build next, with two-way line-level crossover (about 150 to 200Hz), two amps per channel, and (perhaps) a single-cap filter for the tweeter. Time+money permitting. All comments are therefore welcome.
Tarun
I'm a novice to speaker design, so bear with me.
I've read that drivers for dipole speakers should have a Qt > 0.5. If I use theJordan JX92S for all but the lowest frequencies, and have a separate 12" or 15" driver for the bass, does the Qts limit apply to the Jordan too? Or only for the woofer?
Adding another twist, if I build a dipole mid+tweeter using a JX92S and a tweeter, and get the bass (say, 200Hz and below) from a sealed box with two push-push drivers as discussed elsewhere on this forum and at http://www.aloha-audio.com/ME2txt.html , then does this Qts limit apply to the Jordan?
Any comments, even stray thoughts and observations, welcome. What I've described above is the speaker I'd like to build next, with two-way line-level crossover (about 150 to 200Hz), two amps per channel, and (perhaps) a single-cap filter for the tweeter. Time+money permitting. All comments are therefore welcome.
Tarun
The jordan jx92 s will be ok, if you use separate bass drivers from 200-150 Hz downward. But you definitely will need a higher Qts for the woofers, if you want them to run open baffle.
For the output of the jx92S there is no difference whether you make the bass dipole or sealed box. (System and Room response is a different story). Just remember that you shouldn´t cross over lower than 150 Hz.
Rudolf
For the output of the jx92S there is no difference whether you make the bass dipole or sealed box. (System and Room response is a different story). Just remember that you shouldn´t cross over lower than 150 Hz.
Rudolf
This idea is like the Basszilla (and some designs from the past, with an open baffle mid and big woofer in a box.) The idea works very well, and it is a lot easier to get the crossovers right when they are out on the extremes. I think you should go for it!!!
Use a 15" pro audio if possible, but it requires a BIG box. Your crossover point is probably about right- but watch out for too much x-max. 150 might be too low. It can be calculated and compared to the actual limits of the mid driver.
The only down side is the Jordan has low efficiency, so you won't be able to take advantage of a high efficiency bass driver.
Use a 15" pro audio if possible, but it requires a BIG box. Your crossover point is probably about right- but watch out for too much x-max. 150 might be too low. It can be calculated and compared to the actual limits of the mid driver.
The only down side is the Jordan has low efficiency, so you won't be able to take advantage of a high efficiency bass driver.
Variac said:
Actually, I was thinking of twin-opposed drivers in a box... the push-push topology in a simple rectangular box, as in Lynn Olson's page. What do you think of that? In this respect, I'm thinking quite different from Basszilla. And anyway Basszilla is a conventional speaker in the sense that it assumes one amp per channel and does passive crossover at poweramp output level. I was thinking of doing line-level crossover, which allows for interesting possibilities without the headaches of huge caps/coils.
I too am a bit unsure about whether the Jordan can deliver punch at 150Hz. Should I push it up to something like 300 then? Or should I discard the Jordan for something like a good 6" woofer?
Tarun
Just saw your speaker's details! Superb!
Saw your thread about your modified Basszilla just now! The speakers look absolutely lovely, and seem to have some great ideas. I bet they sound every bit as lovely as they look. Lucky you.
I have small JX92S bookshelves, and I too seem to like the sound of those drivers somewhat off-axis more than exactly on-axis. The treble roll-off that way actually makes it sound better. Don't know whether this is a general phenomenon with these full-range ones? I don't feel this way with the dome tweeters of my other speakers.
Now, a newbie question about your speaker's OB mid. I was under the impression that large baffles were a Good Thing in OB designs; the flat portion of the frequency response is longer with larger baffles. How does your design work so well with such small baffles? I told you, I'm new to the game... please can you patiently give me some pointers?
Once again, great speakers.
Tarun
Variac said:
Saw your thread about your modified Basszilla just now! The speakers look absolutely lovely, and seem to have some great ideas. I bet they sound every bit as lovely as they look. Lucky you.
I have small JX92S bookshelves, and I too seem to like the sound of those drivers somewhat off-axis more than exactly on-axis. The treble roll-off that way actually makes it sound better. Don't know whether this is a general phenomenon with these full-range ones? I don't feel this way with the dome tweeters of my other speakers.
Now, a newbie question about your speaker's OB mid. I was under the impression that large baffles were a Good Thing in OB designs; the flat portion of the frequency response is longer with larger baffles. How does your design work so well with such small baffles? I told you, I'm new to the game... please can you patiently give me some pointers?
Once again, great speakers.
Tarun
Hi Tarun,
In order not to hijack this thread, I have posted some info on my
Basszilla thread regarding open baffles and why mine can be pretty small.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17691
Mainly it's because the crossover point is a lot higher than the frequencies that the fullrange people are trying to reproduce.
Having 2 push push drivers is very Basszilla if they are low distortion,Lynn Olsen emphasizes the importance of low
distortion drivers in his sub discussion, AND mentions a subwoofer (the Almighty Subwoofer) that uses a 15" pro (JBL) driver. The JBL has a lot more x-max than my driver. So much that it can be equalized to give very low bass. This might be the ultimate approach, but I think there are pro drivers that do upper bass better probably than the JBL 2666
Because the woofer speakers cross over higher than subwoofers in the small open baffle/bass box approach, you need to have a driver pointed at the listener. I don't know how having only one of 2 pointed at the listener will affect the sound.
I am also going to bi- amp my speakers someday. as I mentioned
in my thread. This has the advantage of having the mid driver run full range directly connected to the amp, with NO crossover
If you think your mid driver can't handle enough power, due to power handling or excursion (x-max) issues, then you might need to have a crossover at it's lower range to keep it from trying to reproduce low bass. With the Fostex, I can play my speakers REALLY loud without a lower crossover, but it would be possible to damage them in a big room I guess.
In order not to hijack this thread, I have posted some info on my
Basszilla thread regarding open baffles and why mine can be pretty small.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17691
Mainly it's because the crossover point is a lot higher than the frequencies that the fullrange people are trying to reproduce.
Having 2 push push drivers is very Basszilla if they are low distortion,Lynn Olsen emphasizes the importance of low
distortion drivers in his sub discussion, AND mentions a subwoofer (the Almighty Subwoofer) that uses a 15" pro (JBL) driver. The JBL has a lot more x-max than my driver. So much that it can be equalized to give very low bass. This might be the ultimate approach, but I think there are pro drivers that do upper bass better probably than the JBL 2666
Because the woofer speakers cross over higher than subwoofers in the small open baffle/bass box approach, you need to have a driver pointed at the listener. I don't know how having only one of 2 pointed at the listener will affect the sound.
I am also going to bi- amp my speakers someday. as I mentioned
in my thread. This has the advantage of having the mid driver run full range directly connected to the amp, with NO crossover
If you think your mid driver can't handle enough power, due to power handling or excursion (x-max) issues, then you might need to have a crossover at it's lower range to keep it from trying to reproduce low bass. With the Fostex, I can play my speakers REALLY loud without a lower crossover, but it would be possible to damage them in a big room I guess.
OB small baffle, woofer design, etc.
Thanks for answering my question. I read your responses, and they make sense. Essentially, after your answer, I feel "OB mid+high and bass box" is more practical than "pure OB full-range." No wonder Dick Olsher and you both like it.
Yes, I remember him emphasising that "fast" bass is not so much transient response or step response as low IM distortion. But do you mean that push-push bass should only be tried with low distortion drivers? Can't I just try it with any drivers and get results limited by the driver quality?
Based on this, I understand your choice of "bass box with single bass driver pointed at listener".
But a thought that comes to mind is... will it then be interesting to have the bass range split into an upper bass and a sub-bass? Handle 20-80Hz, say, using a push-push bass box, and 80-200Hz using a single driver facing the listener, in a separate box (like your current design). Will this be overkill? Just a thought, that's all.
What will this two-level bass get me? Will I get clean bass much louder at the lowest frequencies because of the push-push sub-bass set, and still deliver directional upper bass to listener? Am just trying to see if you think it makes any sense at all...
I presume that by this you'll bypass the passive XO you currently have. In that case, will it be difficult reproducing the same XO behaviour in a line-level XO?
Newbie question: can I use a woofer with even a low Qts for OB designs, provided I play it at SPL low enough to not make it reach Xmax? IN other words, does the Qts issue for OB woofers come up only when I drive the speaker to Xmax, or will a low-Qts woofer sound bad in OB even at low SPLs?
Thanks for the patience. Greatly appreciated.
Tarun
Variac said:
Thanks for answering my question. I read your responses, and they make sense. Essentially, after your answer, I feel "OB mid+high and bass box" is more practical than "pure OB full-range." No wonder Dick Olsher and you both like it.
Yes, I remember him emphasising that "fast" bass is not so much transient response or step response as low IM distortion. But do you mean that push-push bass should only be tried with low distortion drivers? Can't I just try it with any drivers and get results limited by the driver quality?
Based on this, I understand your choice of "bass box with single bass driver pointed at listener".
But a thought that comes to mind is... will it then be interesting to have the bass range split into an upper bass and a sub-bass? Handle 20-80Hz, say, using a push-push bass box, and 80-200Hz using a single driver facing the listener, in a separate box (like your current design). Will this be overkill? Just a thought, that's all.
What will this two-level bass get me? Will I get clean bass much louder at the lowest frequencies because of the push-push sub-bass set, and still deliver directional upper bass to listener? Am just trying to see if you think it makes any sense at all...
I presume that by this you'll bypass the passive XO you currently have. In that case, will it be difficult reproducing the same XO behaviour in a line-level XO?
Newbie question: can I use a woofer with even a low Qts for OB designs, provided I play it at SPL low enough to not make it reach Xmax? IN other words, does the Qts issue for OB woofers come up only when I drive the speaker to Xmax, or will a low-Qts woofer sound bad in OB even at low SPLs?
Thanks for the patience. Greatly appreciated.
Tarun
How directional are push-push bass units?
Thanks, Dave.
On this topic, I was reading Variac's msgs and wondering about the need for directional upper bass, and whether a push-push setup can deliver it.
If I have a two-driver push-push bass box for each channel, and I place these boxes such that the listener is exactly lined up along the central parting line of each each bass box, will the box deliver almost as good directional-sounding bass? Basically, if the two drivers of a push-push box are exactly symmetrically on two sides of the straight line to the listener, will their waves merge to generate the immediacy of a direct radiator? We're talking frequency range of about 20-200Hz here, sort of as in Variac's bass box.
Tarun
Thanks, Dave.
On this topic, I was reading Variac's msgs and wondering about the need for directional upper bass, and whether a push-push setup can deliver it.
If I have a two-driver push-push bass box for each channel, and I place these boxes such that the listener is exactly lined up along the central parting line of each each bass box, will the box deliver almost as good directional-sounding bass? Basically, if the two drivers of a push-push box are exactly symmetrically on two sides of the straight line to the listener, will their waves merge to generate the immediacy of a direct radiator? We're talking frequency range of about 20-200Hz here, sort of as in Variac's bass box.
Tarun
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