I've been toying with the idea of breaking down and buying some measurement hardware/software. I really can't afford over a grand. even 500-1000 will mean some moonlighting, so to speak.
I'm leaning towards a clio or preferably clio lite setup.
1. does anybody have any opinions on clio and similar products?
2. any opinions on the mics and preamp that come with this, the MMII, or any other mic/preamp combo's?
I've read what vance dickason and dr d'appolito say in their books, but would like some more input before dropping this kind of money. (you can buy alot of drivers with $700, on the other hand, you probably get more than $700 worth of insight from clio or similar)
i tried some searches, but didn't really get the info I was looking for.
btw, anybody want to split the cost? i suppose this only works if you live somewhere in northern cal/bay area.
I'm leaning towards a clio or preferably clio lite setup.
1. does anybody have any opinions on clio and similar products?
2. any opinions on the mics and preamp that come with this, the MMII, or any other mic/preamp combo's?
I've read what vance dickason and dr d'appolito say in their books, but would like some more input before dropping this kind of money. (you can buy alot of drivers with $700, on the other hand, you probably get more than $700 worth of insight from clio or similar)
i tried some searches, but didn't really get the info I was looking for.
btw, anybody want to split the cost? i suppose this only works if you live somewhere in northern cal/bay area.
One can't 'share' Clio/Clio-Win. The hardware card has a serial number and that's locked to the software. One won't work without the other.
It's a good program, slightly user hostile but very accurate. Buy it from AudioXpress and you'll get the Mighty Mike included.
If you want to get you're feet wet for less money $149 try ETF 5 from http://www.etfacoustic.com
It's a good program, slightly user hostile but very accurate. Buy it from AudioXpress and you'll get the Mighty Mike included.
If you want to get you're feet wet for less money $149 try ETF 5 from http://www.etfacoustic.com
thanks thomas
i don't mean copying the software. i've got enough pc's around here to put together a dedicated pc for testing only. this dedicated pc could be shared, as if by a local club or some such. i don't think this violates software copywrite as it's only used on one machine. of course, this means lugging around a dedicated pc, hence the geography restriction to northern california.
i looked at etf, and if it had a decent mic and preamp which didn't cost an extra $250 (-honestly, i don't think plugging it into a RS spl meter counts as accurate), i'd get this, because it is so reasonably priced.
unfortunately, i sold my scopes and other test equip a decade ago when i changed careers, so by the time i put together enough stuff to do TS and other measurements, i'll end up spending what i would have on clio, i suspect.
Now if someone has a decent mike/preamp they want to sell, preferably calibrated, let me know.
p.s. i got the impression from old colony's web site, that the version of clio lite with the mic was not MM but audiomatica's own?
i don't mean copying the software. i've got enough pc's around here to put together a dedicated pc for testing only. this dedicated pc could be shared, as if by a local club or some such. i don't think this violates software copywrite as it's only used on one machine. of course, this means lugging around a dedicated pc, hence the geography restriction to northern california.
i looked at etf, and if it had a decent mic and preamp which didn't cost an extra $250 (-honestly, i don't think plugging it into a RS spl meter counts as accurate), i'd get this, because it is so reasonably priced.
unfortunately, i sold my scopes and other test equip a decade ago when i changed careers, so by the time i put together enough stuff to do TS and other measurements, i'll end up spending what i would have on clio, i suspect.
Now if someone has a decent mike/preamp they want to sell, preferably calibrated, let me know.
p.s. i got the impression from old colony's web site, that the version of clio lite with the mic was not MM but audiomatica's own?
AudioFreak said:
perhaps this is so...i'm downloading the clio manual now. i shall peruse it. however, most don't-it's essentially unenforceable and simply because it is printed in the software license agreement doesn't necessarily make it legal.
under a ridiculosly strict interpretation of this, you couldn't sell it to someone secondhand. afterall, what's to stop me from selling it to someone after six months then buying it back. gee wiz, if someone comes over to my garage and is testing some drivers, is this a violation of the license agreement because a different person is using the machine?
when i buy a rake from home depot, am i violating the manufacters rights' if i lend it to my neighbor, even if he would have bought it otherwise and now the manufacturer has lost a sale?
i don't agree with rampant copying of software, but this kind of agreement is nonsense.
anyway, this is an argument for some other forum-or the courts.
ucla88 said:
Yep certain licences state that it is illegal for anyone other than the person who originally purchased the licence to use the software.....
I know this is stupid but thats the way things are and a very small number of people do get done for breaking these stupid rules.
Most say you can resell it for less than its original value so long as you retain no part of it after resale.
As for the not beng able to resell a license you legally own? I would question if they can legally place this restriction. You can likely find out by going to :
http://www.allexperts.com/getExpert.asp?Category=1482
I have used this site before, and the experts will generally answer any question for you. I would recommend copy and pasting the entire paragraph that you beleive restricts you from selling your software/hardware setup in the message you send to the laywer.
If you ask and get an answer, please share with the rest of us.
As for software.....have you tried Speaker Workshop yet?
http://www.audua.com
It is not well documented online, not even features are covered sufficiently. Download it(hey, it's free) and try it out. It is as powerful as one would expect a commercial CAD package to be.
The only thing this software costs is $20 for parts to build a mic preamp and $15 for parts to build a jig for T/S paramaters. You can also buy a Panasonic mic cartridge that comes with a calibration file, and make your own very accurate measuerment mic. I think the cartridge with cal file is around $30. Why waste money on a mitey mic?
Contact Kim Girardin at kmgrdn@luminet.net about purchasing a capsule with a cal file.
-Chris
http://www.allexperts.com/getExpert.asp?Category=1482
I have used this site before, and the experts will generally answer any question for you. I would recommend copy and pasting the entire paragraph that you beleive restricts you from selling your software/hardware setup in the message you send to the laywer.
If you ask and get an answer, please share with the rest of us.
As for software.....have you tried Speaker Workshop yet?
http://www.audua.com
It is not well documented online, not even features are covered sufficiently. Download it(hey, it's free) and try it out. It is as powerful as one would expect a commercial CAD package to be.
The only thing this software costs is $20 for parts to build a mic preamp and $15 for parts to build a jig for T/S paramaters. You can also buy a Panasonic mic cartridge that comes with a calibration file, and make your own very accurate measuerment mic. I think the cartridge with cal file is around $30. Why waste money on a mitey mic?
Contact Kim Girardin at kmgrdn@luminet.net about purchasing a capsule with a cal file.
-Chris
ucla88
The little calibrated mic and mic pre-amp from ETF is the cheapest true calibrated mic available anywhere. It's calibrated to a B&K 4133
A calibrated B&K 4133 will set you back about $3000+
It's included in the price of Clio-Win lite if purchased from AudioXpress. It uses the same Panasonic electret cartridge you describe.
Wallin jig info
http://www.gti.net/wallin/audio/preamp2/preamp2.html
The little calibrated mic and mic pre-amp from ETF is the cheapest true calibrated mic available anywhere. It's calibrated to a B&K 4133
A calibrated B&K 4133 will set you back about $3000+
It's included in the price of Clio-Win lite if purchased from AudioXpress. It uses the same Panasonic electret cartridge you describe.
Wallin jig info
http://www.gti.net/wallin/audio/preamp2/preamp2.html
You can also buy a Panasonic mic cartridge that comes with a calibration file, and make your own very accurate measuerment mic. I think the cartridge with cal file is around $30. Why waste money on a mitey mic?
thanks chris
now that might be worth pursuing. a mic with a cal file for $30 bucks. building a preamp is really no big deal, in fact there's a post somewhere here to a good mic preamp, so that would work well. I have already downloaded speakerworkshop, and that will work well for the TS and some other measurements. add on 150 for etf and that might be a fairly cheap way to go.
as far as the whole software license thing goes--on a practical level, i doubt any manufacturer would come after you for starting a hobbyist club and having a small group of people use a particular hardware/software package, irrespective of the license. first, it would be enormously bad press ("large multinational conglomerate goes after hobbyists trying to learn speaker design"). second, companies are leery of interfering with end user property rights because it brings down the market value of their products. after all, are you going to pay more or less for a product which has no resale value because the manufacturer puts conditions on its resale?
thomas, oops you posted while i was writing.
thanks again-i was wondering how good the calibrated mic from etf was-sounds pretty good.
thanks chris
now that might be worth pursuing. a mic with a cal file for $30 bucks. building a preamp is really no big deal, in fact there's a post somewhere here to a good mic preamp, so that would work well. I have already downloaded speakerworkshop, and that will work well for the TS and some other measurements. add on 150 for etf and that might be a fairly cheap way to go.
as far as the whole software license thing goes--on a practical level, i doubt any manufacturer would come after you for starting a hobbyist club and having a small group of people use a particular hardware/software package, irrespective of the license. first, it would be enormously bad press ("large multinational conglomerate goes after hobbyists trying to learn speaker design"). second, companies are leery of interfering with end user property rights because it brings down the market value of their products. after all, are you going to pay more or less for a product which has no resale value because the manufacturer puts conditions on its resale?
thomas, oops you posted while i was writing.
thanks again-i was wondering how good the calibrated mic from etf was-sounds pretty good.
ThomasW, you seem to be using ETF. Do you get good and repeatable measurements with it. I was thinking to purchase it but playing around with demo, it seemed to give me different results on every run. Even if I tried for example exactly the same measurements (mic place etc.) it wouldn't give the same result. Sometimes with room measurements it even tended to give resonance where the previous day was not...
It shouldn't be caused by a measurement setup as I have tried many different. Even with just SB Live and it's analog in/out... The usual system I use is soundcard with C-Media CMI8738 chip and Sony MD for A/D conversion.
I also use a JustMLS which comes with LspCad. It doesn't give waterfalls etc, but gives a frequency response characteristics which are very well repeatable...
So for now I have postboned the ETF buying idea.
Ergo
It shouldn't be caused by a measurement setup as I have tried many different. Even with just SB Live and it's analog in/out... The usual system I use is soundcard with C-Media CMI8738 chip and Sony MD for A/D conversion.
I also use a JustMLS which comes with LspCad. It doesn't give waterfalls etc, but gives a frequency response characteristics which are very well repeatable...
So for now I have postboned the ETF buying idea.
Ergo
As I stated above, most licences state that you can quite legally resell the licence for less than the original value so long as you retain not part of it after resale .... ie. you can usually sell it no problems but you must sell it for less than RRP and you cant keep a copy for yourself after you've sold it ..... 
For speaker testing soft:
http://www.purebits.com/
Sold by www.e-speakers.com (i believe)
www.ijdata.com
For LspCad and Justmls
www.speakerbuilder.net
For some insights on the mitey mike (The diy test mike article)
www.loudspeakerlab.com
For loudspeakerlab test software
Don't know where you live, but the current Klang+Ton magazine has an article on an affordable testset, of about half the price of clio.
Although, if I had the money, I would most certainly go for the cliowin with pcI/breakoutbox and without the mike
There is indeed someone, who sells calibrated and modified panasonic mike capsules for $28. His name is Kim Giardin, and I've seem to have lost his email address. I do think that a google search will turn it up.
http://www.purebits.com/
Sold by www.e-speakers.com (i believe)
www.ijdata.com
For LspCad and Justmls
www.speakerbuilder.net
For some insights on the mitey mike (The diy test mike article)
www.loudspeakerlab.com
For loudspeakerlab test software
Don't know where you live, but the current Klang+Ton magazine has an article on an affordable testset, of about half the price of clio.
Although, if I had the money, I would most certainly go for the cliowin with pcI/breakoutbox and without the mike
There is indeed someone, who sells calibrated and modified panasonic mike capsules for $28. His name is Kim Giardin, and I've seem to have lost his email address. I do think that a google search will turn it up.
Oh, you want the link, sorry about that
it's here at Liberty Instruments
i would have just edited my previous post but, ahem, i can't
it's here at Liberty Instruments
i would have just edited my previous post but, ahem, i can't
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