I would expect that the low response would be experienced different. I this comparison.
Near or close for low frequency with long wave length shout not make the difference.
Low frequency response will depend on a couple of things. First of all, unless you are very colse to the source, low frequency response is dominated by the room modes. That has more to do with placement than source type (although you may read otherwise ob some web sites). But as you get very close to the source what you hear at any frequency is what the source is radiating. Since a dipole is two sources and typically equalized for the free field, when you get close to one of the low frequency dipole sources, say front side of the woofer, you will hear the boosed low frequency response. But I don' think you need to get that close before the direct sound starts to dominate what you hear. Also, the big differences between typical so called CD speakers is in what is happening from 500 or 1k hz up.
Ok the cd is midhigh.
But i read all the threats so called boxy sound of non dipole speakers. I would expect gainfile to hear this also as the big difference.
I had expected the dipole bass would win right out. After all they were what initially drawn me into building these types of speakers.
Yet, the difference is not pronounced. Different, but not in a way that one is superior than the others.
The "box drone" or boom I observed and learnt with many commercial products may be something that is wrong with the design of the particular speakers, rather than a shortcoming of the topology (box) used. Or monopoles for that matter.
Yet, the difference is not pronounced. Different, but not in a way that one is superior than the others.
The "box drone" or boom I observed and learnt with many commercial products may be something that is wrong with the design of the particular speakers, rather than a shortcoming of the topology (box) used. Or monopoles for that matter.
*If* you have four decent 15" (or bigger) to play with, I'd suggest you to slap together a "Deep Frame Dipole" sub (N-frame shape - both chassis radiating in both "pipes", one behind the other) and compare again...
No flimsy two way possible though
LOL
Michael
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Build also four 15" in a closed box and compare it with your proposal also.*If* you have four decent 15" (or bigger) to play with, I'd suggest you to build a "Deep Frame Dipole" sub (N-frame shape - both chassis radiating in both "pipes", one behind the other) and compare again...
No two way possibly though
Michael
No way their presentation would be any different as a simple single boxed one, just more SPL headroom.
The trick with DFD and its incredible (to me) "realistic" bottom bass rendering - as far as I understand it for now - is in the part I would normally consider as "CMP distortion" both from dipole behaviour plus from pipe behaviour.
This works pretty from high SPLs down to "midnight listening levels"
Lots of head scratching at my side - believe me..
Michael
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Yes, the rap is dipole bass excites fewer room modes. That is only a 1/2 truth. The real truth is that how dipoles excite modes is different. The idea that they only excite axial modes is dependent on a lot of things, such as rectangular room, perfectly rigid walls, dipole axis aligned with a room direction. Additionally, as you move a dipole around the bass changes. As we all know, move a monopole closer to a wall and you get a bass boost. Move a dipole closer to a wall and the bass is canceled. Once again, I have discussed this at my site. Sorry if some of you can not read it.
Dipole bass actually tends to be the most sensitive to placement, cardioid bass the least. At least that was the conclusion of Backman in his paper, "Low-frequency polar pattern control for improved in-room response"
I also agree tha box speakers dopn't have to sound boxy. I have designed and listened to too many excelent box speakers to make that argument. Again, its's more about the reflected sound field that give the dipole its character.
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You know I love your compendiums - but is it really only me who has constantly difficulties with displaying your pages?
Look here:
maybe you may once consult an experienced web designer to ensure compatibility with different browsers ?
Michael
Generally I can read it, but it's not that often I understand it
David
I had similar problem with FireFox when I changed some settings to make the font bigger for my ageing eye's, when I went back to the default settings all was well.
I like printing the material so I can read the harder stuff when I go to bed, but I cannot get John's site to print so it is readable, I assumed that may have been done on purpose.
David
An interesting read, and all kudos to you for actually taking the time to build another set of speakers to make a comparison with. Most people would not bother, but to make a conclusion using a B12 is a bit of a waste. I'm fairly familiar with this driver, and even more so with the B10, and mediocre is the best I would describe either and I would expect the SEAS mid you used in the OB's to better them in most regards, except sensitivity. The SEAS is supported by dedicated LF drivers not expected to cover the entire range from the bottom up. The 1k xover for the Ewave guide is quite low too.
FTR, I am on the opposite side of the fence WRT both of these speaker types, much preferring the partial CD of Ewave types. Every OB I've heard sounds to me like Monet's painting looks.
FTR, I am on the opposite side of the fence WRT both of these speaker types, much preferring the partial CD of Ewave types. Every OB I've heard sounds to me like Monet's painting looks.
Blurry, diffuse flowers that are an artist's editorialising on what the flowers actually look like.
His dipole also uses a waveguide.. and its the upper freq. range where things become more diffuse in varying designs.
Didn't you say your speakers are active? I noticed a great improvement in clarity with bass when I "activated" my Tannoys.
I've not heard Gainphile's OB's. Note the third word in the edited quote of my own post above.
..yup, but note this qoute:
"..I am on the opposite side of the fence WRT both of these speaker types."
My point is that it's quite probably an invalid statement for this thread - in that both of these speaker types are almost identical in relationship to diffuse/non-diffuse imaging.
(..for the edification of others, or a "heads-up".)
OK, if you insist on being a pedant, most OB's I've seen do not use waveguides, and certainly none of the ones I have listened to have, so my statement, based upon my experience is valid and correct. And my statement is obviously based upon my experience so far.
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