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Old 27th December 2010, 03:59 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by cuibono View Post
Nice work gainphile! I've been interested in this design for a while, and will someday build a set, maybe for a HT setup.

Could you post a regular polar graph? And have you considered adding an edge radius to the box and foam plug to the horn? I've read that these make a big difference, and people find the speakers sound less fatiguing.

BTW, what is your native language? That is interesting it doesn't have past-present-future distinctions.
Thanks. My polar measurement is pretty bad due to the aftermentioned problem. I need to build a larger turntable to rotate the speakers right at their acoustic axis.

I'm Indonesian and the language Bahasa (which is similar to Malay) use the same word for gender, plural, and past/present times. Only with added words. I should not complain about English though as I heard French and German are much more difficult in expressing them. .
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Old 27th December 2010, 04:04 AM   #22
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Well done!

Maybe the dipole has smaller 'tail' after the impulse?

A well-designed sealed box usually has a tight and clean bass sound, might be somewhat muted when overdamped. It's a (pleasingly) surprise that a severely EQ'ed box has a good lower bass.

And, well, it can never be apple to apple in this comparison, but once you have bigger cone area for the dipole, it can also excel in low bass, at least for hearing. (good low 30's give a sense of 'very deep', under that, it becomes vibrations but not sound.... )

Also, on dipole, I found multiple subs benefit, too. I'm using 3 channels now. It's obvious better than 2.

Talking about the senses of dynamic and impact (or slam... etc) of bass sound, the most powerful one I've heard is horn bass - front loaded with sealed back chamber and full size mouth (not those commercial ones with severe truncation). Just overwhelming.

Interestingly, dipole bass (in its best condition) can deliver that kind of 'feel' - huge contrast, very fast rise and fall... Not the same level of sheer power, but the 'feel' can be very close
Thanks. My dipole sub is actually equalised for -3 at 20hz. In fact I rather sacrifice maximum SPL rather than cutting the bass. Although not entirely audible they are important for the foundation of music (I think).

Indeed I've seen pictures of GOTO horns and if people are willing to do that, there must be a damn good reason

Multiple dipole sub hey... now that's something new for me. Although have been reading the multiple sub approach, I could never do this in my room, to have stuff scattered around (and for Geddes approach, one needs to be at ear level I read??).
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Old 27th December 2010, 04:21 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by dantheman View Post
Great write up Gain! I had a similar experience with dipoles(coax pro 15 and compression driver) and direct radiators(Pro 10" and dome tweeter)--the dipole sounding more dynamic. However, when I went with a Dayton WG, D220, and Eminence Delta Pro 12A, in a similar fashion to the E-wave, dynamics seemed restored. I changed that woofer to a Peerless 10" and it seemed I again lost the dynamics but got a better sound balance, polar response, and deeper bass in return.

I wouldn't give up on either of your systems yet.

I'm curious as to what you make of the pseudo Pluto vs. pseudo EW vs. pseudo Note CD dipole. The Pluto essentially fits Dr. Toole's criteria fairly well. You're sort of in a unique position to have a toned down, but still awesome, version of Dr. Toole's findings/S. Linkwitz design, John K OB implementation, and Dr. Geddes perspective on loudspeakers at your fingertips.

Have you set those EWs up like Dr. Geddes recommends? The 45 degree cross. The most spacious presentation I've heard from a pair of loudspeaker requires that set up.

Great thread,

Dan
Thanks. Indeed I had expected the 12" Beta to be more dynamic than Seas 8". So it must be something else which contributed to the perception. My guess is that the topology contributes more than individual drivers. I don't understand this subject (and how to measure "dynamics" anyway?). I heard the unity horn before and these Econowaves have the same exact presentation when it comes to dynamic. The unities were more smoother, from memory. But that's different drivers, amps, xo, etc.

With regards to Omni vs. CD vs. Dipole, and cosidering limitations I put on the implementation (cost, driver quality, etc). I must say there is no clear winner. The Omni sounds very natural but lacking SPL severely and not sounding as transparent (that pipe resonance). And CD vs Dipole as discussed in my initial post.

Had the CD "Blown the dipoles" as in many rave reviews out there I would be really pleased. But they are not a panacea. Nor are dipoles and omnis.

Being a fan of sportsbikes, the CD must be something of a Ducati: Fast, loud, and exciting. But try to ride them for long journey and your back will scream in protest. The dipoles would be those japanese bikes: smooth and forgiving. I ride a Kawasaki Ninja, and my preference is ......... Dipoles

But that vocal range needs to be fixed. Still.
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Old 27th December 2010, 04:55 AM   #24
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Your guess is as good as mine on the perception of dynamics. I'd love to see a thread investigating that. I know Dr. Geddes and John K. have hashed out that one a bit(over my head at the time), but no real conclusions were drawn if I remember correctly. I believe it was essentially a heat build up in the motor discussion. I do think dipoles actually have a perceived dynamic advantage in general probably d/t simply not wasting half the energy of the driver. Of course horns have a big advantage as well as do pro drivers--pretty much build exactly for it.

That stinks about the pipe resonance. I really figured SL would have a novel way of vanquishing it. I really haven't studied up on his stuff enough.

Thanks again,

Dan
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Old 27th December 2010, 07:08 AM   #25
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Nice thread!
Be careful though, not to draw too hard conclusions based on these listening sessions. You are still comparing specific loudspeakers in a specific setting. Therefore you can not simply generalize your findings. A reworking of either speaker may change the outcome of the comparison.

A side-note on dynamics: subjective dynamics and technical dynamic ability probably aren't the same thing. Listen to a small conventional 2-way system of medium quality in the free-field (in you garden for instance) and you will probably be able to turn it up a lot higher before you notice dynamic congestion. You might even blow some drivers before you realize it. I think subjective dynamic compression has more to do with a non-uniform power-response and a high amount of reflected sound.
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Old 27th December 2010, 07:55 AM   #26
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Hi gainphile ,

Nice that your comparing two way CD with dipole. I am struggling with the idea trying to build a dipole. Now i am not motivated to try a OB as the advantages aren't that obvious.

I am using horn loaded drivers as long I build speakers my self (24years now). What I hear and read of many other users of horn loaded drivers that voices are very realistic. Also I hear a very good placeable sound stage, and also a CD advantage more depth in the soundstage. Some listeners to my system also say voices are very clear and near to the listener and at the same time very spatial sound. The sound stage of my set now begins at the speakers some times it sounds a bit in front of the speaker overall to say it simple it is around the speaker placement and not what I hear common a bit behind the speaker placement.

Before you go further with listening impressions you have to improve the baffle. It is very important to make a angle at the top and sides of the baffle. 45degrees or so the angle doesn't matter as long it isn't flat like you have now.

Click the image to open in full size.

It is common no-ledge that it works but often forgotten to do so. Or people think it is done to look nice. But it is a important improvement to control reflections on the baffle and linear distortion caused by these reflections.

Click the image to open in full size.
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Last edited by Helmuth; 27th December 2010 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 27th December 2010, 08:33 AM   #27
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Helmuth

What about if the waveguide/ horn is simply sitting on top of the box, in the "free field", with no baffle?
like this
http://homepage.mac.com/marc.heijlig...les/altec.html

Last edited by otto88; 27th December 2010 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 27th December 2010, 08:41 AM   #28
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by otto88 View Post
Helmuth
What about if the waveguide/ horn is mounted on top of the box, in the "free field", with no baffle?
That will also be better it is common no-ledge that the edges of a horn are important to sound good. I made a super tweeter horn and made a nice housing with flat front the bright sound was gone a angled baffle solved the problem.

It was easy to test I was standing with the horn in my hand playing music and I pulled it in and out the flat baffle I was stunned by the difference and the improvement by a little angle.
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Old 27th December 2010, 09:52 AM   #29
mige0 is offline mige0  Austria
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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
You may be interested in this. The LT is not really the way to go with dipole woofers.

Also, you can download my ABC Diople for free here. It has a variety of filter calculators in the Excel spread sheet.

You know I love your compendiums - but is it really only me who has constantly difficulties with displaying your pages?

Look here:
Click the image to open in full size.


maybe you may once consult an experienced web designer to ensure compatibility with different browsers ?


Michael
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Old 27th December 2010, 10:41 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by mige0 View Post
You know I love your compendiums - but is it really only me who has constantly difficulties with displaying your pages?

Look here:
Click the image to open in full size.


maybe you may once consult an experienced web designer to ensure compatibility with different browsers ?


Michael
Hi Micheal,

What browser are you using? You seem to be having trouble displaying the correct font. I've tested on 4 different PCs using Explorer and Fire Fox without problems. Try it now. I changed some fonts around.

Anyone else having any problems with this or any pages on my site?

I would think that if this was a common problem I would be getting emails about it.
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