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Old 7th January 2011, 01:42 PM   #131
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Very interesting graphical analysis... Thanks Elias.

It's very interesting as my room is a normal livingroom (not dedicated audio room) and I thought it was quite live. No room treatments at all, and in both cases the speakers are located in front of big glass windows!!

If the room really dominates few khz upwards, what is the implication here? That polar pattern does not matter in those ranges as you mentioned ? ...

Do you have other examples of such speakers-room interaction?
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Old 8th January 2011, 12:41 PM   #132
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hi,

I would say the room dominates from 20Hz to 20kHz We should not neglet the polar pattern, but it should be matched to the room ! That means if we make polar patterns to approach some engineering conveniencies, like CD, without considering the whole picture we will not reach the optimum.

Here is an example of my room There was two loudspeakers, one small bookshelf two way box with 6.5" + dome, and another with dipole line array + dome with 'diffractor'.

These are measured at listening position at 2.5 m. My room also normal living room, without special acoustics elements, just normal furnituring.


Here the box:
Click the image to open in full size.

Abowe 3kHz there are few wide band reflections, but room eats them fast.

Below 1kHz it's a total mess (I define this as a box in a room sound).



Here the line array:
Click the image to open in full size.

The wide dispersion tweeter generates many reflections up to about 10kHz.

Due to the very high directivity of the dipole line array the temporal consistency of the wave front is maintained over the whole audio band all the down to bass region.


Here up to 150ms the box:
Click the image to open in full size.

The treble reflections die too fast, and the lower midrange below 500Hz is bouncing forever !


Here dipole line array 150ms:
Click the image to open in full size.

The midrange is pretty clean, and treble is in balance.

Now this loudspeaker is no way a CD ! Dipole line array + dome with diffractor. A heretic approach ! However it nicely compensates for the room and sounds good to me.


- Elias


Quote:
Originally Posted by gainphile View Post
Very interesting graphical analysis... Thanks Elias.

It's very interesting as my room is a normal livingroom (not dedicated audio room) and I thought it was quite live. No room treatments at all, and in both cases the speakers are located in front of big glass windows!!

If the room really dominates few khz upwards, what is the implication here? That polar pattern does not matter in those ranges as you mentioned ? ...

Do you have other examples of such speakers-room interaction?
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Old 8th January 2011, 12:46 PM   #133
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hi,

I also noticed the same difference between the horns But that discussion should belong to the horn honk thread


- Elias


Quote:
Originally Posted by mige0 View Post
The horn of the CD seems to be better than the WG of the dipole (faster decay) - possibly less refections from the front wall is mixing in here too (good to see in the short period plots).

Michael
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Old 8th January 2011, 03:30 PM   #134
sendler is offline sendler  United States
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Default diffracter? Toe in?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias View Post
Dipole line array + dome with diffractor.
Is dome diffracter another name for a wave guide? Do you have a picture. Isn't the tweeter on the box measuring much better 3KHz and up?

The dipole woofers are very clean. Are they positioned staight ahead or toed in?
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Old 9th January 2011, 06:36 PM   #135
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Hi,

A wave guide is an enclosed structure to transfer the wavefield energy from one place to another within the structure.

I don't have a wave guide here. It's normal dome tweeter with additional diffracting element. I use a sharp edge in the immediate vicinity of the dome.

There is no extra dipole woofer. There is only the dipole line array which is aimed to the listening position, since it plays up to about 2kHz.


- Elias

Quote:
Originally Posted by sendler View Post
Is dome diffracter another name for a wave guide? Do you have a picture. Isn't the tweeter on the box measuring much better 3KHz and up?

The dipole woofers are very clean. Are they positioned staight ahead or toed in?
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Old 10th February 2011, 11:00 PM   #136
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RIP and Thank You Zilch.

audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=350053

"More data, less wank" will live on ...
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Last edited by gainphile; 10th February 2011 at 11:04 PM.
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Old 11th February 2011, 01:19 AM   #137
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That's so sad! I loved looking at the work he did for all of us. I enjoyed his analytic point of view.

Zilla
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Old 11th February 2011, 04:20 PM   #138
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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RIP Zilch.
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Old 11th February 2011, 11:59 PM   #139
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That is so sad, I never met him but I read a lot of his posts, he was truly driven by audio.
Think of him, appreciate what he did, and what you have.
Time is finite.

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Old 21st March 2011, 09:55 AM   #140
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Default CONCLUSIONS

Time for me to update the judgement of Dipole vs. CD speakers. I have observed RESOLUTION and COST as another criteria. Refer to earlier posts about these subjective observations.

S15 - Econowave DSP vs S16 - Constant Directivity Dipoles

COST
Winner: CD Speakers


RESOLUTION (midrange)
Winner: Dipoles

This could simply be the quality of woofer used. The 12" simply can't match the 8" metal cone driver

SWEET SPOT
Winner: CD Speakers


BASS
Winner: CD Speaker

I changed my mind. Dipoles simply can't pressurize under 40hz in my room. Otherwise dipoles win.

MID-HIGH/Tonality
Winner: CD Speakers


IMAGING
Winner: Dipoles


SPL/VOLUME
Winner: CD Speakers


DYNAMICS
Winner: Dipoles



We have a winner: ........

Click the image to open in full size.

In summary, the CD Speakers delivers EXCITEMENTS while the Dipoles deliver REFINEMENT. Subject to my own limitations of course.

Which one do I listen to? Well, it's the dipoles. But it's a 5-minute job to swap
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