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Old 31st December 2010, 01:26 AM   #101
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I think he was trying to link this:
High-Fidelity Uniform-Directivity Loudspeakers
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Old 31st December 2010, 06:52 AM   #102
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That's it. I've setting my speakers up like that but away from the corner for about a year. Works as stated.

Thanks Wayne,

Dan
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Old 31st December 2010, 02:09 PM   #103
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This is the 30th aniversary of the Constant Directivity Cornerhorn. We've been using this configuration for a quite a while now.

I had not heard or read mention of the crossed-axes configuration outside of my realm until the last few years, when it has been adopted by just about everyone with constant-directivity speakers. I think that's great, because it does work very well.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 11:45 AM   #104
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Default Sweet Spot

Thanks for the link Wayne! I must admit I'm new to this type of speakers and unaware that there is such a goldmine as PiSpeakers! I've been reading slowly the white papers there.

More observation:

SWEET SPOT
I noticed with the CD speakers, when I move around the sofa the sweet spot is very wide. In fact very little changes from corner to corner. Now, the dipoles are known for very wide sweet spot as well. But it's different. The sound image of the dipoles shifts as I moved left and right. The CD on the other hand is more similar, very little change. That reminded me of the Omni, where I could practically walk around the room with little change. The CD can't do that when I tried it but still very wide, and better than the Dipoles.
Score: CD Speaker

Summary so far:

BASS
Score: DRAW

MID-HIGH/Tonality
Score: CD Speakers

IMAGING

Score: Dipoles

SPL/VOLUME
Score: Unsure (CD speakers if mere SPL is the concern)

DYNAMICS
Score: Dipoles

At the moment I put on most weight on Imaging and Tonality. The CD can't image like dipoles, but the dipoles have serious issue with mid-high transition. I was sort of accepting that shortcoming but not after hearing the CD. This is most prominent in vocals.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 01:15 PM   #105
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Gain, my experience very much mirror yours but I never got to do a CD dipole. In the end the tonal issues with dipoles got the best of me. It seemed I was messing with the EQ or toe in all the time and for each recording. It lost its fun real fast. I guess I figured if it doesn't sound good, there's no reason to go on.

The Note may well address the the tonal issues but it comes with a very narrow vertical polar response. That might be an issue with your design as well. Have you looked into that?

Dan
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Old 2nd January 2011, 01:34 PM   #106
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Originally Posted by dantheman View Post
The Note may well address the the tonal issues but it comes with a very narrow vertical polar response. That might be an issue with your design as well. Have you looked into that?

Dan
Please don't confuse the optimum vertical listening window of the Note with what it actually sounds like with vertical movement. I realize you can not judge that without hearing them, but there is very little difference in sound with vertical position with regard to over all tonality. The limits I placed on the vertical window are a result of the high crossover point between the mid tweeter coupler and the Neo3 which affects the direct response. But in room response variation with vertical position is not so affected.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 01:51 PM   #107
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Originally Posted by gainphile View Post
At the moment I put on most weight on Imaging and Tonality. The CD can't image like dipoles, but the dipoles have serious issue with mid-high transition. I was sort of accepting that shortcoming but not after hearing the CD. This is most prominent in vocals.
I think this may be more of a design problem that something attributable to dipoles. And actually, I think all the categories you are listing except imaging are more design issues and choices that something that can be attributed to dipole or CD.
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Old 2nd January 2011, 05:36 PM   #108
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Quote:
I had not heard or read mention of the crossed-axes configuration outside of my realm until the last few years, when it has been adopted by just about everyone with constant-directivity speakers. I think that's great, because it does work very well.
Hello Wayne

You missed the original JBL Everests from back in the mid 80's. The technique clearly has it's roots there. It was one of their statement speakers.

DD55000 Everest


1985 DD55000 EVEREST

Rob
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Old 2nd January 2011, 10:34 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayne Parham View Post

I had not heard or read mention of the crossed-axes configuration outside of my realm until the last few years, when it has been adopted by just about everyone with constant-directivity speakers. I think that's great, because it does work very well.
This really only requires that the speaker "beam" at higher freq.s, NOT that any so-called "constant" directivity pattern be present. Many larger "full-range" drives do just that, and in that regard:

Ted Jordan has been using this configuration for a *very* long time (..with his work at Goodmans I believe in stereo before stereo). Of course it was not with a "constant" directivity pattern, but still using the same idea of greater spl from the far speaker. To my knowledge he is the only one that has expressly and continuously advocated this type of configuration. (..he was also one of the first to use a radial pattern as well, and also a stereo aficionado before stereo recordings were available.)

The Klispchorn, while not designed for this originally, does the same thing for a stereo pair. (..depending on how far away you are from the loudspeakers.)

JBL "borrowed" from the Klipshorn as stereo use via the Hartsfield, and also created the Paragon - and in fact the Paragon is expressly made for stable off-axis imaging (..and was conceived as a center stereo channel).

EV latter started selling what we often think of as "constant" directivity designs (at least horizontally), and again (this time for stadium use) was designed for the same purpose.


The late "resurgence" of this I'd largely credit to Earl Geddes (..though in point of fact there are a large number of reasons why it's being used again).


ALL of this however seems to deny one critical aspect:

-why wasn't it's use more pervasive?


(..I know the reason, but I'm wondering if others do.)
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Old 3rd January 2011, 12:52 AM   #110
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I have no idea Scott, but I'll take the bait. Care to share?

John, I'm not confused. Could you show a bit more of your vertical polar response? I don't want to start an argument here, but if you chose to defend by all means take the floor. I've asked you about this before with no reply. I'm trying not to be annoyed. At the 12 ft distance I can't imagine it would matter much, but near field..... try it for yourself. I have experience here and I actually think it's well backed by Mr. Haas, Dr. Toole, Mr. Parham and common sense(I know Dr. Geddes would refute and refuse to show them)--but you don't really show enough info in this department for the end user to really know. From the 3 lines you show, it's darn narrow. I'm not trying to be insulting. It's just the facts as you have shown. Maybe it's better than it seems with more detail. From the what I can see, it probably is better abetter speaker for a large room--more distant listening especially being a dipole if you buy the theory that dipoles need more room behind them as I do. That's not a design flaw, just a limitation or compromise like every other design. Something to throw in the literature for suggested set up. The other thing your speaker's got going for it is the treble knob. If you have to sit in a response dip, you can just crank it up.

Again, not an insult,

Dan
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