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Old 30th April 2012, 10:25 PM   #11
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Thank you very much for your advise, what this for my new technologie from Martin concerns, I have to practice a lot more to get it the good way, but I am have found the good way.

I a a amp designer, so, speakerboxes is for me new, what calculations concerns.

The bump I presume is because of fase reactions? there is a need of some distance between the two, (low and mid). Martin say I have to divide the RE when parallel speakers, I have the thiele parameters of visaton paralleled,
it is 2.85 ohm or specifications are not right, normal with one speaker it is 5.7 ohm I now that filtering is normally calculated with 8 ohm, Martin uses dc resistance, I have tryed to calculate filter components with a other software, using 8 and 4 ohm, but what do the sheet with the theoretical values” as Actual Component Values? .. I have already ask this to Martin but yet answerm so I wait, I have to learn this way of calculations, I am used on normal software for this, I already see that the Martin sheets are much more usefull, but I have to learn more.

But first I have to solve the winzip crash in windows 7 after a last update the winrar program crash with opening winrar or winzip, it annoying me very much, windows 7 gets more unstable with any update.. tomorrow I go further with testing and set here the result.

I will try your advise, thanks again.

kees

Last edited by kees52; 30th April 2012 at 10:44 PM.
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Old 1st May 2012, 08:32 AM   #12
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kees52 View Post
The bump I presume is because of fase reactions? there is a need of some distance between the two, (low and mid).
No phase reaction - the low and high pass filter frequencies need to be farther apart.
Quote:
Martin say I have to divide the RE when parallel speakers, I have the thiele parameters of visaton paralleled, it is 2.85 ohm
Yes it is 2.85 Ohm, but you entered 2.35 Ohm in the sheet
Quote:
I have tryed to calculate filter components with a other software, using 8 and 4 ohm, but what do the sheet with the theoretical values” as Actual Component Values? ..
You have defined the crossover filter frequencies in the "Crossover Definition". From them the worksheet calculates the "Theoretical Values". You need to enter those values (rounded to the nearest "market" values) into the "Actual Component Values" column. See attached picture. The "Actual Component Values" are not calculated automatically!
There are detailed "Instructions" on how to do this below the "H frame Enclosure Geometry Definition". Did you read them?
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File Type: gif MJK kees52.gif (19.0 KB, 265 views)
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Old 1st May 2012, 10:48 AM   #13
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Ahh oke, a little mistake, I correct it, thanks.

Yes I did read them but boxes are not my thing, amp designing is more my thing
but I want to learn how to play with boxes because it is fun and give some feeling
of that everything is from my hands, and it is much more cheaper, I have also play
with the tl, and now after reading I have a excel sheet for calculate tl tube length
to put in the mathcad.

But after some studie I am surpised that I am already so far that I can simulate,
it is more difficuld then a box calc program, but it is more precise.

thanks for your help.

Last edited by kees52; 1st May 2012 at 10:52 AM.
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Old 1st May 2012, 11:53 AM   #14
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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I have done the corrections, I now now how it works, thanks to you all.

I have now everything within plus minus 3 dB what is best I get until now.

I have used fostex speakers but also a visaton ws13ng basmid what I can us with a extra tweeter, this I can not simulate but is not a disaster.

now this all on my designed amp.

real diy testing, real fun. - YouTube

audio is recorder through a mobile phone so it is not big sound, but it is open and easy.

Just one thing left, what I have to do with this in the sheet, is this the speaker offset in h-frame?

(Fraction of the Total Length of the Front Cavity : 0.001 < x < 0.999)

thanks again.
Attached Files
File Type: zip visatonws26s-fostex.xmcd.zip (207.1 KB, 5 views)

Last edited by kees52; 1st May 2012 at 12:03 PM.
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Old 4th May 2012, 05:56 PM   #15
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Default first H frame test

The first one for tryout, it is with the visatons and a v\basmid/tweeter, I have not yet the fostex.

so I go solder the rest and let it sing later on.
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Old 4th May 2012, 08:34 PM   #16
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kees52 View Post
Just one thing left, what I have to do with this in the sheet, is this the speaker offset in h-frame?
(Fraction of the Total Length of the Front Cavity : 0.001 < x < 0.999)
Yes, it is the offset. The value is 0.5 for a symmetric H frame and 0.001 for a U frame
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Old 4th May 2012, 09:00 PM   #17
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Well it sing, and it go low, however, it is sensitive for where I am in my room, a meter for the box it has a beautifull bass, but 3 meters before the box the bas dropps for shure with 3 db minimal, I presume the h frame has to stand on the floor, and in a corner, what not so is with the testing.

the 0.5 is that I have to move the speaker baffle to correct for the baffle itselfs? can you explane some more for me please, thank you.

here is some music from youtube, the box sound this way, 30 hz, it go there easely but you can,t hear that with the camera recording, and is mono (use just one channel so you miss a lot).

The low pass for the bas speakers, not higher then 100 hz and minimum 18 db octave, the sound above 150 hrz is coulored like you wil hear in this video, here is is 6 db octave and 250 hz, for up, bessel fuction work best, 12 db or more, it give no fase problems..

I did hear from other members that the H frame coloured the sound, and so I have to say yes it does give hollow sound, so low pass not hihger then 100 and maybe even 80 hz.

First H frame test with visaton wsp26s - YouTube

regards

Last edited by kees52; 4th May 2012 at 09:06 PM.
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Old 5th May 2012, 10:47 AM   #18
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kees52 View Post
it is sensitive for where I am in my room, a meter for the box it has a beautifull bass, but 3 meters before the box the bas dropps for shure with 3 db minimal,
As with every loudspeaker, bass is sensitive to the room modes. This is nothing unique for a dipole.
Quote:
I presume the h frame has to stand on the floor
Yes please, and without clothes next to it.
Quote:
and in a corner
No, please!
Quote:
the 0.5 is that I have to move the speaker baffle to correct for the baffle itselfs?
Sorry, I don't understand your question. You may need to visualize that.
Quote:
here is some music from youtube, the box sound this way, 30 hz, it go there easely but you can,t hear that with the camera recording, and is mono (use just one channel so you miss a lot).
I don't judge sound quality from Youtube movies. No way.
Quote:
The low pass for the bas speakers, not higher then 100 hz and minimum 18 db octave, the sound above 150 hrz is coulored like you wil hear in this video, here is is 6 db octave and 250 hz, for up, bessel fuction work best, 12 db or more, it give no fase problems..
Please follow MJKs method in how to equalise H frames. Start with a 6 dB low pass at 50 Hz or lower to get a linear response. Add a second low pass for the crossover.
Quote:
I did hear from other members that the H frame coloured the sound, and so I have to say yes it does give hollow sound, so low pass not hihger then 100 and maybe even 80 hz.
Every change in baffle size changes the response of a dipole. I would not call it "colour". Please equalize the H frame in the right way and it will be useful up to 200 Hz.
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Old 5th May 2012, 12:21 PM   #19
kees52 is offline kees52  Netherlands
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Hi Rudolf

I have simulate with carpet in the room, I have change the low pass a little with what I have, so I must get the parts I need, but now it sound very nice, I have try with and without feedback on the hybrid amp, this amp is very good, the first in my live that make sound so easy.

I have test tones used to find the cut off, 27 hz and below bas is gone, 30 hz give 86 dB watt, so very close to martins sheet, impressive. holding a paper for the printer before the h frame a meter or so and the paper go as moving as the conus of the woofers itslefs.

And a other good thing, the bass don't boom through walls ang go to the nabures a normal box does.

I have still to use the bass, it is very different, colourless and as you now i have to use to it.

schematic of my amp design is here also.

thanks

What I did mean with the 0.5 the offset what is in the sheet, for me is 0.7 for a good respons together with the other fill ins, but how have I to use the speaker offset in the box I then make, shift the speaker 0.7 inch to the front? of back?

I mean this, how to implement.

ξ := 0.7 (Fraction of the Total Length of the Front Cavity : 0.001 < <
0.999)

I know one thing I get Goosebumps of the music even if I hear just one mono channel.

You say this

Every change in baffle size changes the response of a dipole. I would not call it "colour". Please equalize the H frame in the right way and it will be useful up to 200 Hz.

I do not equalize with a equalizer but with filtering, I go make a filter as used with baffle correction if I measure bumps and falls, but as I now hear it is quite liniair til the lowest region in music, with ease, I have only a hybrid amp and a volume pot that is al and the best.

Vocals are sooo beautifull from the amp and youtube if it sounds there nice it is alays much better in real time.

regards
Attached Images
File Type: gif ScreenHunter_01 Apr. 21 19.08.gif (37.8 KB, 203 views)
Attached Files
File Type: zip Frame_Corner_Passive_visatonws26s-fostex.zip (209.8 KB, 8 views)

Last edited by kees52; 5th May 2012 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 5th May 2012, 03:29 PM   #20
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kees52 View Post
What I did mean with the 0.5 the offset what is in the sheet, for me is 0.7 for a good respons together with the other fill ins, but how have I to use the speaker offset in the box I then make, shift the speaker 0.7 inch to the front? of back?
Just look at your attached worksheet
Page 12 of your PDF, bottom "Side view". There you see how the baffle is moved backward with ξ := 0.7 in the H frame.
BTW: I've never seen any advantage in building such an asymmetric H frame.
Quote:
I know one thing I get Goosebumps of the music even if I hear just one mono channel.
Mission accomplished. What to expect more.

Probably you should change "radius := 1m" in the "Listening Position" at page 11 to a more realstic value. But that is marginal.

Rudolf
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