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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 24th February 2013, 11:11 PM   #621
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Quote:
Or save even more and just read about them . . .
Stereophile makes more money than anyone else in audio.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:12 PM   #622
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by dewardh View Post
Nonsense. I know the room for which my speakers are designed . . . to take it "out of the equation" would be pointless. And impossible . . . the room plays a significant part in creating the sound field which I hear.

The only way I can listen without including the "signature" of the room is with headphones . . .
You've stripped the context from my quote, and were expressly rude to boot.


The post was about the determinate factor of a design's presentation (..mostly with regard to the IMP which is currently under discussion).

Prior posts from others "jump" to reflections creating an improved presentation. (i.e. The IMP has a "net" polar pattern that likely enhances reflections in a room - ergo: The IMP's superior preference from others in the article is due to its enhanced reflections.)

That's an assumption, and it may be an incorrect assumption. (..it may also be correct of course.)



Added reply:

Most people can listen to their loudspeakers under a variety of conditions (as mentioned in the post), though notably with some effort. Headphone listening doesn't involve the speakers (..unless you are using a Smyth unit), so it's a pointless comparison.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:15 PM   #623
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OT. Earl, I saw a car going north on I-85 Friday that had the license plate "Geddes". Got up beside and the driver didn't look a thing like you.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:17 PM   #624
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Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
I suspect the amount on which we rely on each of these will vary person to person,

Chris
Hi Chris - this is absolutely not the case. The time intensity tradeoff of source localization is very stable from listener to listener and quite well defined (See Blauert - I used these curves just this morning).
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:22 PM   #625
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Originally Posted by greenm01 View Post
"It has been remarked that if one selects his own components, builds his own enclosure, and is convinced that he has made a wise choice of design, then his own loudspeaker sounds better to him than does anyone else's loudspeaker." - Beranek, L.L., Acoustics
This is quite correct in the majority of cases but it is NOT a given. It is entirely possible to do a design without the slightest reference to any personal subjective evaluation, just pure physics. This is what I attempt to do, although its hard to keep ones personal opinions entirely out of a discussion even if that is done in regards to the design.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:39 PM   #626
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
This is quite correct in the majority of cases but it is NOT a given. It is entirely possible to do a design without the slightest reference to any personal subjective evaluation, just pure physics.

This is what I attempt to do, although its hard to keep ones personal opinions entirely out of a discussion even if that is done in regards to the design.
In fact, many designs are done this way, even by DIY'ers - by way of software modeling. (..I'd almost argue that most competent "passive" multi-way DIY designs are done this way - with no subjective evaluation altering the design largely because of parts cost, time, and effort in making any changes.)

Still, I don't care how well it models and then measures, if you do a subjective listen (and you know you will) and don't like it at all - then it's not something you are going to promote.

Of course technically - prior history with subjective evaluations will always partially influence a new design.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:46 PM   #627
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
but I don't see its relevance to what I am saying. There are people who do work that is not based on their own personal opinions even though that vast majority do quite the opposite.
I'm simply asserting that in regard to the definitive effects of loudspeaker radiation patterns and directivity on audio quality in domestic sized rooms, the Jury is still out. Ask ten different experts such as yourself (and I do consider you to be an expert in this field), and you will get ten different answers, in some cases biased towards commercial interests.

To further quote from "Effects of loudspeaker directivity on perceived sound quality - a review of existing studies:"

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It has been shown that whilst there is opinion on the matter of loudspeaker directivity, detailed conclusive evidence as to which is most preferable and the attributes
that contribute to such preference is limited. Of the majority of studies carried out observing directivity directly, results have indicated little distinction between types...
This makes it difficult for ordinary folks like me to decide where we should invest our hard earned money. If I didn't care, I would head over to Best Buy and quit DIY altogether.
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Old 24th February 2013, 11:49 PM   #628
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
Still, I don't care how well it models and then measures, if you do a subjective listen (and you know you will) and don't like it at all - then it's not something you are going to promote.
It doesn't happened to me and if it happens to others then there is something that they are not doing right.

All of my designs are purely objective - nothing has ever been done based on anything personally subjective. Once you get used to what measures best it easily becomes what you prefer.
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Old 25th February 2013, 12:02 AM   #629
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This makes it difficult for ordinary folks like me to decide where we should invest our hard earned money.
Ethan Wiener and I have had some discussions on this exact topic of late. He has encouraged me to write up my position because he is whole heartedly in support of it. It differs from Toole in a few key areas, but I can explain why that is based on what the goal is/assumptions are. It is true that certain situations taken as a given will yield certain results - like the room design. However if these givens are allowed to be variables, the situation can change quite a bit. Hence it does depend on ones assumptions. I tend to make fewer than others - I don't take the room as a given, I design rooms and speakers together specifically to optimize the results. I claim that this leads to dramatic improvement's in playback that are noted by everyone who experience's it. Its not something that everyone can do, but ts becoming more common.
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Old 25th February 2013, 12:06 AM   #630
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Once you get used to what measures best it easily becomes what you prefer.
Dave Clark - who did this test between these two speakers - commented that "people seem to be able to get used to just about anything in a loudspeaker - and they seem to like what they are used to". To which I commented "Then why wouldn't everyone just get used to what measured best? Nothing else is justifiable."
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