Linkwitz Orions beaten by Behringer.... what!!? - Page 5 - diyAudio
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Old 17th November 2010, 02:41 PM   #41
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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Originally Posted by gainphile View Post
Are we doing something wasteful here? Multi amps, complex xo/dsp and all when a simple Behringer can do the job?
It just depends on your goals. I build speakers because I simply love to build something and have it work better then expected.

I use DSPs because the give me incredible flexibility and lower my over all costs since I tend to build speakers then build new speakers after I learn something.
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:06 PM   #42
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The challenge results were given by David Clark at the recent AES meeting in San Francisco. SL was present.
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:11 PM   #43
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Originally Posted by 6.283 View Post
Then you are saying that an omnipole does not work either (or even less), which is in its ideal form a point source ratiating into every direction uniformly.
The only omnipole that sounded quite adequate to me was one made by German Physics, and it was in a pretty well damped room.
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Isn't that what stereo and phantom sources are all about ?
Not when you get a mixture of sources in the same channel. It's still best to keep the least sound source possible for a specific SPL design target. But as usual, tradeoffs need to be considered
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Disagreed. Only a uniform power response make speakers disappear. I have used many materials in the past in speakers with non-
uniform response. They never disappeared. No matter how good or bad the drivers had been in terms of CSD.
Small speakers generally do not have uniform power response, and quite often they disappear, more often that larger speakers. However, when listening to music, speakers that have a longer decay will tend to have a flatter sound image. If the decay is not even, it is quite oftern that certain instruments will hit notes in those longer regions causing the sound to seemingly come from a specific speaker, thus the image of that instrument seems to jump around.
With a faster decay, the driver decaying sound does not mask the venue acoustics as long, so the venue acoustics is more obvious creating a more realistic spacial sound.

Normally the requirement of even power response is under the assumption that the room will respond to all frequencies in the same way, this is far from reality.
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"Regular" speakers do not have a backwave at all. Their sound comes from the front and wavelength depending it may or may not reach
to the back. That creates an uneven power response and the typical box sound.
The only time I had encounter box sound was eather tuning of the box, or driver cavity resonance. Of course what we each describe as box sound might be totally different things. The room is a box, and if not properly treated, box sound may occur as well. I have data showing when box sound is hear and when eliminated by reducing cavity resonance.
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If I understand correctly what you are saying then this is a matter of timing.

regards
Time and SPL level.
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:12 PM   #44
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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The challenge results were given by David Clark at the recent AES meeting in San Francisco. SL was present.
SL does not seem like a person that will voice his disagreement strongly.
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:15 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by gainphile View Post
I am a member and follow that forum quite often. It is full of great information, although things are not as quick/many as diyaudio.

This is old news so I don't know why no one is mentioning it there (Linkwitzlab also never mention the result of the challenge). Maybe just a matter of time or simply lack of interest.

SL is a member of diyAudio. It would be very interesting if he still visit here and provide his opinion.
Well, again, I think there is entirely to much emphasis placed on "who said it", whether it be me, SL, Earl Geddes, Lynn Olson...... some group of guy's who got together for some contrived experiment. If SL were to comment why would it matter? What could he say? The whole challenge thing is foolish to start with, IMO. I would assume that if any of my speakers were in the same test they migh also have finished behind the Behringer. What would be my recourse? The test was flawed? The room wasn't right? The wrong source material was used? The listeners don't have a clue? The results of the experiment were not an indictment of dipole speakers. The results are what they are; a group of listeners got together and expressed their preference. The world didn't change.
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:21 PM   #46
doug20 is offline doug20  United States
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The results are what they are; a group of listeners got together and expressed their preference. The world didn't change.
No but I think the truely important point is that when we remove all other variables and just listen without expectation then its a completely different world. The conclusions are always going to be a little different then uncontrolled listening enjoyment.

The Audiophile world has always been a world of great exaggerations, IMO. Real conclusions are mostly boring and not as colorful
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:24 PM   #47
Davey is offline Davey  United States
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Originally Posted by gainphile View Post
I am a member and follow that forum quite often. It is full of great information, although things are not as quick/many as diyaudio.

This is old news so I don't know why no one is mentioning it there (Linkwitzlab also never mention the result of the challenge). Maybe just a matter of time or simply lack of interest.

SL is a member of diyAudio. It would be very interesting if he still visit here and provide his opinion.
The Orion Users Group doesn't exist for that purpose. We started it simply as a support site for help/instruction to folks building the Linkwitz designs.

If a person is looking for a "discussion" forum to espouse modifications, second-guess the designers technical prowess, criticize the performance, etc, etc, there are plenty of other forums available for that. You're on one.

Cheers,

Dave.
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:30 PM   #48
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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John k
I really like the way you put things.
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:30 PM   #49
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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I basically don't think the open baffles will work as good ad they were meant to.
1. The more interaction among waves really don't work well, no matter what the polar plots tell you. You just have a bunch of waves passing through each other.
2. It's always necessary to keep reflections at low levels below the venue of the original recording. Only this will allow you to hear the acoustics of the venue more clearly.
3. Fast CSD decay will make the speakers disapear. If you use paper coned drivers or any material with high loss. The speakers will disapear.
Not So..... Has nothing to do with the material nor even size. If you keep the room ratios the same Big can disappear like small, of course a badly designed speaker is just such regardless of topology used..

The Orion is not the pinnacle of Open baffle design and you cannot expect to just plant the Orion anywhere and expect it to work and without E/Q !

Interesting ...


I would not write off OB designs just yet ....
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Old 17th November 2010, 03:33 PM   #50
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Interesting experiment!

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To put things in perspective, the Orions are $9000 loudspeakers and the Behringers are $360.”
Hello Gainphile

Money really isn’t the issue. Radiation patterns and room set-up are. Just goes to show you there is more than one way to skin the cat.

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Earl opted out
They may not have used Earl’s speakers but it looks like they used his set-up techniques with the Behringers. The results seem to support his views as far as speaker radiation characteristics and set-up.

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I would suggest we all go listen to some of our favorite music on our systems. If you like what you hear don't worry about what you read on the web or who wrote it
Good idea John. While thought provoking it doesn’t change my views or diminish the enjoyment I get from my home systems.


Quote:
Are we doing something wasteful here? Multi amps, complex xo/dsp and all when a simple Behringer can do the job?
Nah, where would the fun be if you could find nirvana at your local music store?

Rob
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