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Old 20th February 2013, 11:09 AM   #301
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Originally Posted by 6.283 View Post
Features that make a speaker disappear are minimized diffraction, wide dispersion and no discontinuities in directivity.
The great Floyd E Toole's extensive loudspeaker testing and research, "all point in the same direction: that wide-dispersion loudspeakers, used in rooms that allow for early lateral reflections, are preferred by listeners especially, but not exclusively, for recreational listening."

This was accomplished (Toole's assessment) with conventional loudspeakers with wide radiation patterns and smooth frequency magnitude response. The electrostatic dipoles in this test did not score well. A wide radiation pattern can be achieved with a simple box speaker; open baffle dipole, cardiod, and omni is not required.

Just about any well designed loudspeaker with a smooth even power response will sound good in a room with early reflections. Of course the AS will sound different, but suspension of disbelief is required in any regard.

It's really just a matter of preference: which fake acoustic simulation do you prefer? Do you prefer Timex vs Rolex? Do you prefer Malbec vs Shiraz? Do you prefer to spend several thousand dollars on a loudspeaker design to stroke your own ego (and influence your impressionable friends), or a few hundred dollars on a mass produced commercial product to achieve something subjectively that scores just as good, if not better, in a double blind listening test by audiophiles?

Or do you simply enjoy building stuff and tinkering for the sake of DIY? I sure do, but I'm not deluding myself into believing that I'll find the Stereo Holy Grail in my living room. And folks should be educated and not easily influenced by a Guru who has a significant financial interest in every new design they issue that will again be your "last speaker."

Last edited by greenm01; 20th February 2013 at 11:12 AM.
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Old 20th February 2013, 11:21 AM   #302
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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I know exactly what you try yo say
perfect describtion, spot on

I find it better to focus on good tonality

but you are right if you say a good listening position feels pointlessly boring without good imaging
if you want to fake a concert experience, imaging is the key

but if its just to hear music or listen to certain musicians, tonality, pace, rythm, timing etc, are my priority...imaging comes last on my list

but as said, perfect and fixed listening position becomes pointless without good precise imaging, size, width, height, all that stuff
every musician should be placed properly, and stay there
unfortunately not all recordings are good
jazz recordings are for the most the only proper ones
it easily becomes a lost game
In practice, it seems to me that once the technical problems are worked out, imaging just falls in place naturally. I think Dough Self mentioned in one of his books, we try to keep what we do wrong to a minimum.

I remember Mr. Klippel warned me about a problem we had with our drivers after a scan, he said it sounded quite annoying; I tried a treatment that theoretically would solve the problem but never tested it in the lab while listening to it sounded not so different. Well, after fine tuning the amplifier, I removed the treatment and discovered how bad the situation was. Really shocked me.
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Old 20th February 2013, 11:45 AM   #303
tinitus is offline tinitus  Europe
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.... try to keep what we do wrong to a minimum.
good idea

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.... I removed the treatment and discovered how bad the situation was. Really shocked me.
modding , 'tuning', or 'voicing' can cause real big problems if done without knowing why or what cause the problem to begin with
change just one thing after that 'mod', and everything can go downhill very fast
and then you may not even know why
you just pull your hair and cry, 'what happened now'
and the desperate modding starts all over again
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Old 20th February 2013, 12:27 PM   #304
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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well.. really?
Relates to what statement exactly ?

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It's really just a matter of preference: which fake acoustic simulation do you prefer?
I am not sure if these are all rhetorical questions now.
Anyway, I try to find the "solution" that best works for me in my room. If that works for other people as well, great.

And solution can be replaced 1:1 with illusion. That's what it is. We just try to convey it as perfect as possible.
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Old 20th February 2013, 01:18 PM   #305
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Relates to what statement exactly ?
the thread title!
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Old 20th February 2013, 01:26 PM   #306
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Originally Posted by greenm01 View Post
This was accomplished (Toole's assessment) with conventional loudspeakers with wide radiation patterns and smooth frequency magnitude response. The electrostatic dipoles in this test did not score well. A wide radiation pattern can be achieved with a simple box speaker; open baffle dipole, cardiod, and omni is not required.

Just about any well designed loudspeaker with a smooth even power response will sound good in a room with early reflections. Of course the AS will sound different, but suspension of disbelief is required in any regard.

Do you prefer to spend several thousand dollars on a loudspeaker design to stroke your own ego (and influence your impressionable friends), or a few hundred dollars on a mass produced commercial product to achieve something subjectively that scores just as good, if not better, in a double blind listening test by audiophiles?
If only.. Large electrostats have horrible off axis response and are usually not very flat on axis either. "Traditional" speakers do not disappear, at least this is my experience.
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Old 20th February 2013, 01:39 PM   #307
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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the thread title!
Ah !

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"Traditional" speakers do not disappear, at least this is my experience.
And mine.
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Old 20th February 2013, 04:14 PM   #308
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I am not sure if these are all rhetorical questions now.
Yes, just me armchair pontificating. I am feeling very naive for purchasing both Orion ($150) and LX521 ($175) construction plans.

Anyone interested in purchasing my license(s)? I never got around to building the speakers, although I've auditioned Orion.
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Old 20th February 2013, 04:30 PM   #309
lolo is offline lolo  France
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you are not serious are you..?
I don't think SL is doing it for the money, or the ego to be honest.. Why don't you instead go ahead, build the LX, buy the Behringer and check yourself?

Last edited by lolo; 20th February 2013 at 04:34 PM.
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Old 20th February 2013, 04:47 PM   #310
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you are not serious are you..? I don't think SL is doing it for the money, or the ego to be honest..
I have no doubt SL is serious and passionate about his art/craft. I have no doubt he's a brilliant Electrical Engineer. But, most of the claims SL makes about his open baffle dipoles are incredibly subjective (with a lot of hand waiving) and not backed up by rigorous independent testing. Most positive review originate from folks who've already Drank the Cool-Aid and made a significant financial and emotional investment.

If I had known about this AES report I would have never considered purchasing the license(s).

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Why don't you instead go ahead, build the LX, buy the Behringer and check yourself?
That would be incredibly expensive (for me) not worth the time and investment. If a pair of Behringers can present a more convincing AS to 19 audiophiles why should I bother?

Last edited by greenm01; 20th February 2013 at 04:48 PM. Reason: grammer
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