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Old 19th February 2013, 04:53 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
Here is the rub. A recording taken from microphones will have imaging, it is the nature of recording. The live experience is another animal altogether, as you are listening to more of the room itself than any direct output of the instrument(even sitting up close to the instrument you are still hearing a floor bounce). Audiophiles love precise imaging because they know it was recorded to get that effect. It is not really artificial(not made up), it is the direct capture of the microphones.

Comparing a recording to a live event is like comparing apples and peaches.
Gee, and for the last 50 years that I've been involved in audio I though the objective was to try to recreate the live experience at home. If it is to reproduce the recorded event as accurately then let's get the room all the way out of it. Listen in an anechoic chamber. That will show you just how poor even the best recording are and how important room reflections are. Without room related reflections you won't want to listen very long. It typically make you disorientated and nauseous. I know from expereince.
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Old 19th February 2013, 05:03 PM   #292
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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
Here is the rub. A recording taken from microphones will have imaging, it is the nature of recording.

The live experience is another animal altogether, as you are listening to more of the room itself than any direct output of the instrument (even sitting up close to the instrument you are still hearing a floor bounce). ......

Comparing a recording to a live event is like comparing apples and peaches.
Hi there S: I'll have another opportunity to observe the effect of listening to live music performed in our listening area, Thursday, when my wife's string quartet rehearses at our home.

While I ageee with your premice quoing above "Comparing a recording to a live event is like comparing apples to oranges" and EG's rejoiner "result is bananas", if we in the diy community are not attemping to rereate reality, then all we have done is to: as Adam from Myth Busters is found of saying "reject your reality and substitute my reality". ...regards, Michael
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Old 19th February 2013, 05:21 PM   #293
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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Originally Posted by tinitus View Post
what can be really annoying is if a drummer has some of his sound(drums) in one side(channel), and other of his drum sound or cymbals in other side(channel)

then he is impossible to place correctly in the 'sound picture'
Happens virtually always if the drum kit is recorded with more than one mic and pretty close (which both happens very often). Then the drum kit rotates between the speakers although on stage it would be located on the right hand side (Jazz) with the hi-hat more towards the audience and the right hand cymbal further back on stage and the bass drum perpendicular to the piano, which sits on the left hand side of the stage.
Then the right hand cymbal appears in the left speaker, the hi-hat in the right and the bass in the middle.
Similar things happen to the piano upon playback, which is also often recorded with more than one mic. Then you can find the lower keys in the left speaker and the higher in the right.
Pretty interesting but the natural context is lost.
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Old 19th February 2013, 05:26 PM   #294
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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To me has always been clear that the record or recorded concert is just an image of something. I have never expected them to sound "live"

Classical, choir/vocal and acoustic jazz perhaps are trying to sound real. They are often recoded "live" at some acoustically decent or interesting places. But hey, even they have been mixed and mastered at studios!

Perhaps binaural recording listened with earphones is the closest thing. You can hera lots of them at Youtube. Chesky records is interested in them now The making of "Dr Chesky's Sensational, Fantastic, and Simply Amazing Binaural Sound Show!" | InnerFidelity

I have downloaded one binaural piano record, but I was not amazed of the sound. It is a Zenph-re-performance https://www.hdtracks.com/index.php?f...HD886970335027
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Old 19th February 2013, 05:42 PM   #295
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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
...Listen in an anechoic chamber. That will show you just how poor even the best recording are and how important room reflections are. Without room related reflections you won't want to listen very long. It typically make you disorientated and nauseous. I know from expereince.
Walking into one was very strange ... and I knew what to expect!

It felt like a different pressure and my ears 'bulged'! And then I felt very unsettled and wanted to look over my shoulder ... disorientating and nauseating it was!
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Old 19th February 2013, 05:54 PM   #296
a.wayne is offline a.wayne  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
Here is the rub. A recording taken from microphones will have imaging, it is the nature of recording. The live experience is another animal altogether, as you are listening to more of the room itself than any direct output of the instrument(even sitting up close to the instrument you are still hearing a floor bounce). Audiophiles love precise imaging because they know it was recorded to get that effect. It is not really artificial(not made up), it is the direct capture of the microphones.

Comparing a recording to a live event is like comparing apples and peaches.
+10

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Originally Posted by chris661 View Post
Wow, are you sure?

I've tried for some time to get the music to leave the speakers and hang in free space. Things like cymbals and hi-hats almost make it, but they're still locatable to exactly where the speakers are, with some smudge of them across the middle.

How did you get around this?
Different discussion topic to this one, there are basics necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by john k... View Post
Gee, and for the last 50 years that I've been involved in audio I though the objective was to try to recreate the live experience at home. If it is to reproduce the recorded event as accurately then let's get the room all the way out of it. Listen in an anechoic chamber. That will show you just how poor even the best recording are and how important room reflections are. Without room related reflections you won't want to listen very long. It typically make you disorientated and nauseous. I know from expereince.
Hi-fi is about the reproduction of the recorded medium, input =output. It's the recording job to capture the live performance, the Hi-Fi systems job, is to reproduce the recording as faithful as possible..
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Old 19th February 2013, 08:12 PM   #297
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Default Siegfried Challenge

I emailed David Clark, the organizer of AES paper, and he sent me the attached document (see below), which was written prior to the test.

My interpretation (paraphrasing 'The Existence Test') from this document and Summary section from of the AES report:

1) The stereo recording/mix quality is essential (microphone placement and quality, timbre, acoustic properties of the recording space, etc.). The Auditory Scene (AS) is dictated foremost by the recording mix rather than playback acoustics (recorded reverberation is far more noticeable that live reverberation).

2) We ignore the loudspeakers as sources of sound if they do not have an acoustic signature:
  • drivers maintain a smooth frequency response and constant directivity across a broad listening area
  • diffraction, distortion, and noise are negligible
3) A feeling of spaciousness originates from the original recording's reverberation signature. On playback, diffuse room reflections compliment this effect by contributing to an enveloping quality.

4) Loudspeaker radiation pattern, symmetry of listening arrangement, and proximity to room walls are not as important as previously thought. Subjective perfection (via. stereo) is relatively easy to achieve with today's equipment.

5) Physically, stereo reproduction does not resemble the live acoustic event. A willing suspension of disbelief is a requirement for AS recreation.

The AES report validates that an AS can be indeed be achieved with stereo, although it invalidates SL's claim that "that loudspeakers and room can disappear from the AS and that this depends primarily upon the polar response of the loudspeakers and their setup in the room."

Basically, any good speaker system can recreate a believable AS. There is no firm consensus (or valid scientific proof) on what constitutes the ideal polar response, open-baffle-dipole or otherwise.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Siegfried_Challenge_2010.pdf (253.3 KB, 62 views)
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Old 19th February 2013, 08:54 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by greenm01 View Post
4) Loudspeaker radiation pattern, symmetry of listening arrangement, and proximity to room walls are not as important as previously thought. Subjective perfection (via. stereo) is relatively easy to achieve with today's equipment.
Very interesting.

I had always thought that there is something that is 'good enough'. The quest to obtain the best possible looking polar response might be not that productive?
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Old 20th February 2013, 06:20 AM   #299
6.283 is offline 6.283  Germany
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Originally Posted by gainphile View Post
The quest to obtain the best possible looking polar response might be not that productive?
Best looking not anyway

Guys, please don't forget that the context here is the "ability to create a plausible AS". That is indeed a pretty easy task.

Different radiation patterns, however cleary sound different in a given room and a speaker too close to the wall will inhibt the precedence effect and affect localization badly.
The biggest differences I can find in terms of AS are ASW/image broadening effects.

Features that make a speaker disappear are minimized diffraction, wide dispersion and no discontinuities in directivity.



Quote:
Originally Posted by greenm01 View Post
There is no firm consensus (or valid scientific proof) on what constitutes the ideal polar response, open-baffle-dipole or otherwise.
I think nobody has claimed that dipolar is the perfect radiation pattern.

Here is my consenus again (though most of you know it already).
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Last edited by 6.283; 20th February 2013 at 06:30 AM.
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Old 20th February 2013, 09:03 AM   #300
lolo is offline lolo  France
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well.. really? Any good speaker, independant of the placement and room? The further I push my dipoles into the room, the better it gets.. the sound is precise, and like suspended in air, with good imaging, without a ton of acoustic treatment either. Same applies to a small omni far from boundaries and in near field.
Does a speaker with distorded directivity does that too?
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