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Old 12th April 2013, 01:51 AM   #2951
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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But equally it is true I feel that the last frontier needs to be addressed to get to the promised land. (wherever that last frontier is for you I guess) It might also be true that once you have the above 700 sorted it allows you to address below as it is then capable of revealing those improvements.

Anyway, without the solid bass foundation I think you have no chance of getting this goal being talked about.
Getting the deep bass 100% would be the icing on the cake, but I don't miss it; if I disconnect the subwoofer, so then the response below about 150Hz is extremely ho-hum, it's obviously noticeable, but it doesn't stop one's ear quickly acclimatising. I've done this at times, and played my wife's favourite recordings, and she hasn't picked it ...

It's pretty hard work getting really low distortion at those low frequencies, the drivers have to be really superb to do it properly. I feel that a lot of what people react to when they like or don't like the bass are the different spectrums of bass distortion that every setup produces.
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Old 12th April 2013, 02:41 AM   #2952
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This was a purely visual setup, sound was never mentioned at all. Done in the 70's if I recall correctly, some very interesting ideas were combined ...

First of all, very high frame rate, no idea what it was now, perhaps 10 times the normal to pull a figure out of the air, so the footage in those days would have taken using slow mo; the thing was that there was no blur recorded or evident, even in a fast moving vehicle, say.

Next, very specialised projector lens technology; they assessed that the perception of flicker between frames, the transition, gives the game away that it's fake. So a very interesting rotating, donut style lens -- imagine a very big spring washer made of glass -- did the job by running a single frame around the loop of the "washer", until it hits the break in the loop; the next frame is then in the exact spot to instantaneously match the projection of the previous frame ... no flicker!

Of course, very high resolution, and top notch film grain characteristics, all the usuals there ...

Finally, projected in a vertical, "Hollywood" bowl setup, IMAX taken to the next level, where the sidereal vision still picks up only the imagery of the film, the screen curves around you ... something like a planetarium ceiling tipped upright.

This means that the visible information is close to 100% immersive, a visual cocoon, no reference points to pick the "trick".

They did a test shoot of inside a car careering out of control down a steep road, and people were screaming, passing out, having hysterics, the works ...
This sounds like Douglas Trumbull's Showscan format. 65mm print shown in 70mm at a frame rate of 60fps. I am VERY familar with this format as I have seen every Showscan movie every shown via their Showscan theater in LA before it was closed and sold to Regal theaters. I loved this format as much as I liked IMAX filmed based system.

The interesting thing is my reference theater strongly resembles a Showscan theater in design. I use a curved woven acoustically transparent 2:35:1 screen that stretches from wall to wall much like the Showscan screen. I got the idea to design my theater this way from visiting the Cinerama Dome in Hollywood, and visiting the Showscan theater in Culver City on numerous occasions.
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Old 12th April 2013, 03:24 AM   #2953
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You're right, looks like the fellow who would have been behind it! I read an article in the Electronics Australia about it then, which would have been a snapshot of the thinking at that moment. So, they decided to go ahead with it it seems, perhaps they cut back on the frame rate to get the balance right in being convincing but not too convincing.

And, it's still evolving! Yes, Showscan Digital, native 120fps would you believe ... do you like it ...? There are smarts in it to downsample very smoothly to 24fps, and do that dynamically, as the director see fit: so, slow, boring stuff in 24, then rev up to 120 for the quick bits, and then back again ...


Showscan Digital from Douglas Trumbull - YouTube
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Old 12th April 2013, 03:51 AM   #2954
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You're right, looks like the fellow who would have been behind it! I read an article in the Electronics Australia about it then, which would have been a snapshot of the thinking at that moment. So, they decided to go ahead with it it seems, perhaps they cut back on the frame rate to get the balance right in being convincing but not too convincing.
Actually, they doubled the frame rate from the film version of Showscan. Now that everything is digital, you can adopt the frame rate to any projector system in the field.

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And, it's still evolving! Yes, Showscan Digital, native 120fps would you believe ... do you like it ...? There are smarts in it to downsample very smoothly to 24fps, and do that dynamically, as the director see fit: so, slow, boring stuff in 24, then rev up to 120 for the quick bits, and then back again ...


Showscan Digital from Douglas Trumbull - YouTube
Showscan Digital has been around for several years. They have a theater at the Universal walk of fame that I have been to several times to see short Showscan films that have been digitized from their film based counterparts. This is actually a 4D system as well, with moving seats, 3D audio, 3D movie, and they can add wind and mists of water as well.

The problem is not the projection system, it the production system and its costs. Showscan movies and shorts are pretty expensive to produce as it requires a huge amount of in camera and external storage because the images are moving so quick, and using up a lot of storage space. You also have to spend a lot of money on making the sets look as real as possible, because the resolution of the system will show everything you have done on the cheap. Jackson found that out first hand with The Hobbit. CG shots were fine, but live action shots showed lots of makeup lines, the edges of prosthetics, and just how fake and flat sets look at such high resolution. Mind you they only shot at 48fps, not 120fps.

The technology has been here, now the artist crafts have to catch up(I am referring to set makers, modelers, makeup artists and the like)
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Old 12th April 2013, 04:38 AM   #2955
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It's interesting the parallels here with high res sound, worrying about storage and download time, and whether the microphones are actually picking up anything worthwhile. Obviously in video higher resolution works, but to me it seems part of the difference is that the standard system, in film, is just barely good enough, so there is plenty of room for improvement.

I don't get the Hobbit problem: if makeup lines, prosthetics are revealed in action sequences then surely that should be the case in normal motion scenes, closeups also. Why would the extra speed make a difference here?

Edit: Our viewing sophistication has certainly improved, we obviously evolve in our ability to pick up "flaws". Looking at old, relatively well made movies it's now so obvious how the lighting was done, the shadow lines on the walls are far too well defined much of the time, and in conflict.
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Old 12th April 2013, 07:55 AM   #2956
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I have noticed that whenever the bass is improved the ambiance too is improved, even when I have only addressed things under 200 hz say.
That's also my experience. We want to listen to large room acoustics within an acoustically small room. This requires the acoustic effects of the small room have to be attenuated.

This is challenging at lower frequencies where modes dominate what is heard. These modal problems aren't restricted just to the region below the Schroeder frequency. In acoustics there are no on-off states, everything happens gradually. Modal problems become insignificant at higher frequencies but they don't suddenly stop at a certain frequency. In my experience modal problems can be a significant factor for the first few hundred Hertz.

Long modal decay needs to be addressed as much as frequency response errors caused by the room. Even more important than achieving a flat frequency response is to remove frequency response distortions that affect only one channel but not the other. Such errors will distort interaural signals which causes spurious localization cues. Pano's sound files did demonstrate the effect.

If all these problems are addressed, localization will be good and it's just a matter of first reflection levels and angle if the speakers disappear and a spacious auditory scene is heard. I was able to get there with very different speaker concepts having very different levels of distortion.

By the way, I think it's not just the ratio of direct sound to reflections that determines the perceived spaciousness but also their absolute level.
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Old 12th April 2013, 09:51 AM   #2957
lolo is offline lolo  France
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As soundtrackmixer says, it's relative. $10k for you seems less than some audiophiles spend. $10k for me might be wayyy over the top.
10k in a shop is not much.. on the second hand market, it's a lot. in DIY, it's a fortune!
If you are smart and skilled you can well get high end system for that, including room treatment.. and dinner with the wife!

Last edited by lolo; 12th April 2013 at 09:53 AM.
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Old 12th April 2013, 11:33 AM   #2958
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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10k in a shop is not much.. on the second hand market, it's a lot. in DIY, it's a fortune!
If you are smart and skilled you can well get high end system for that, including room treatment.. and dinner with the wife!
So what exactly would we build? Isn't that what this discussion was all about?
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Old 12th April 2013, 12:13 PM   #2959
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So what exactly would we build? Isn't that what this discussion was all about?
A speaker with a highly asymmetrical polar pattern that is constant from top to bottom.
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Old 12th April 2013, 01:54 PM   #2960
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A speaker with a highly symmetrical polar pattern over an as large as possible horizontal listening angle.
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