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Old 3rd April 2013, 03:43 PM   #2741
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
My speakers are even "wider" if we look at 360 and not 180 only. So my reflections have a harder time to cancel one another in the L-R measurement.

Rudolf
And that increased power into the room that the OB has towards the back results in almost no difference in the DR ratio in the high frequencies (if I'm reading your last graph correctly). This means your system is more diffuse (lower clarity) compared to say, horns.

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Didn't you claim that for your speakers for an extended area?
I don't think so. I always thought this was a silly goal. Why do we care about other positions if they are never going to be occupied? Unless it's a home theatre, all I care about is the listening position. I don't want directivity because the sound is better everywhere; I want it because it's better in the sweet spot.

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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
In my part of the world Controlled Directivity would be a directivity that is free from jumps at the crossover frequencies and in general rising with frequency.
If such controlled directivity is achieved, I would look at the room first. Depending on the room situation (and what I'm allowed to change/improve or not) I would decide whether I need completely constant directivity or if rising directivity alone would suit the situation better.

Rudolf
I agree with Rudolf here, not dewardh. It does not have to be constant directivity. In fact, putting that much power into the room in the HF will mean a lot of absorption is needed to make it less bright.

Increasing directivity is ok, but peaks in power response, such as woofer crossing to tweeter on bare baffle where the tweeter is acoustically small, are not. There is a coloration there that you can perceive when you have removed it.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 04:31 PM   #2742
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ra7 View Post
It does not have to be constant directivity. In fact, putting that much power into the room in the HF will mean a lot of absorption is needed to make it less bright.
Means no such thing. With constant directivity both on-axis and power response are addressed in the same manner . . . by equalization. If the sound of the speaker in the room is "too bright" then simply reduce the treble . . . with constant directivity balance is maintained throughout the room. Because of the way rooms commonly reflect (particularly at the wall-ceiling boundary) it is sometimes advantageous to roll off the rear radiation more in the top couple octaves . . . it's a room-specific choice.

Of course if you listen in only one (single seat) position you can get away with a lot of otherwise unsatisfactory things. It's a situation which I never experience, since I design for an extended "listening area" and "good" sound throughout the room.

I have come to believe that the first, and essential, step in designing a quality speaker is to define the polar response . . . it is the foundation of everything, and it must be uniform. If it is wrong your speaker will be like a house built on sand. After the polar is established frequency response and crossover can be addressed . . . without the complication of dealing with different on-axis and power response in the room. Then you can address distortion . . . usually a matter of driver selection. While it is always a recursive process it must start with the desired polar, and the baffle which will produce it, since that is fundamental to a good design, and if wrong it cannot be "fixed" in any other way.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 04:54 PM   #2743
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Just saying polar response is the most important is not enough. There are subtle distinctions. First of all, a rolled off treble in the on-axis response sounds like a rolled off treble, even if you have constant directivity. I have tried it a number of times. Second, the notion that if you are listening in the sweet spot, the on-axis response is all that matters is flawed. I don't think it is so, and I don't believe most people in this thread do either.

Off-axis response must be smooth, and replicate the on-axis response. Narrowing in the treble is okay. But bloom is not good anywhere.

The correct way, as I have experienced, is to have flat on-axis and either narrowing off-axis in the treble, or if you have constant directivity, a more absorptive room. Again, this comes to the notion that any particular directivity is not necessarily preferred. We know that flat power sounds bad. Beyond that, it is the combination of directivity and the room that determines the perceived balance. This was the major conclusion of that giant directivity thread.

In this thread, we have been going beyond what we know so far, exploring whether directivity in the lower octaves can improve localization.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 05:31 PM   #2744
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ra7 View Post
Just saying polar response is the most important is not enough.
Who said that? I said it's the foundation, and the first step in design . . . if you don't have it right your speaker will suck regardless what else you do.

But there certainly are a lot of other ways to make a speaker suck even if the polar is good . . .
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Old 3rd April 2013, 05:47 PM   #2745
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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Toole's research says it starts with flat and smooth on-axis response. Second in importance is off-axis response. But I think you know that, and we are in general agreement here.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 05:48 PM   #2746
ORNJ is offline ORNJ  United States
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I have very limited knowledge of speaker design, but I am learning....

but with what I do know, I can agree that having a uniform polar response is the most important. I say this because not everyone can sit in the sweet spot and I would much rather have a good room filling sound than one that only sounds good in a small window.

That said, I do think it is very room dependent on what frequency range one must focus on keeping a good polar response. I can understand why some say it doesnt matter below 700hz. However, when I move off axis now I hear a considerable amount of "boominess" that I wish wasnt there.
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Old 3rd April 2013, 08:17 PM   #2747
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by ra7 View Post
Toole's research says it starts with flat and smooth on-axis response. Second in importance is off-axis response.
This isn't baseball. You don't get to second from first. You have to start with a design that permits both.

"Flat and smooth on-axis response" may well be the top criteria for "listener satisfaction", but it is well down the road in design . . . by the time you are working on equalization you should have decided on a desired polar, maximum SPL (which will determine driver size), number of drivers, separate subwoofer (or not) and, of course, the size of the "listening area" and the room the speaker is to be used in. Among a raft of other things.

Once those other things are sorted out getting flat-on-axis is relatively easy, and off-axis just falls into place (if you have a uniform polar). But what is important in the end product gives limited guidance how to get there and, as already noted, it is an iterative process . . . a choice further into the process may force a backtrack on a previous design decision. Restrictions not related to sound, like acceptable size (a constant directivity horn loudspeaker is quite possible if there is no size constraint, or if corners are available) and budget (the cost of bass drivers tends to "high" in dipole designs) may force essential compromises. But if you start the process without constant directivity you will never get it (and you'll never get both first and second, let alone get past them to the other important "listener satisfaction" features).

Last edited by dewardh; 3rd April 2013 at 08:19 PM.
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Old 4th April 2013, 05:50 AM   #2748
FrankWW is offline FrankWW  Canada
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Don't know what the amplitude difference is in the shading, but at least with the Fender at 55 Hz, there isn't much at all above about 850 Hz - that is still above 700 Hz though. BUT the output above perhaps 600 Hz or so may not be significant. Don't know. __________________
Significance

The higher harmonic components contribute to timbre, attack and localization. Instrument like bass guitar, if it doesn't have zing or buzz, will sound dull, won't get attention. This is related to attack which is the sound right at start of note which identifies to folk what instrument they're hearing. For this instrument defining the start of the note is really important because it establishes hearing rhythmic precision. Also it aids localization, as we've been discussing.
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Old 4th April 2013, 07:06 PM   #2749
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by FrankWW View Post
Significance

The higher harmonic components contribute to timbre, attack and localization. Instrument like bass guitar, if it doesn't have zing or buzz, will sound dull, won't get attention. This is related to attack which is the sound right at start of note which identifies to folk what instrument they're hearing. For this instrument defining the start of the note is really important because it establishes hearing rhythmic precision. Also it aids localization, as we've been discussing.
Yup.

I'm almost positive though that with something like "slap" bass that you'll see higher freq. bandwidth and amplitudes on a spectrograph.

Note though that the larger portion of music with that driving 40-50 Hz bass-line isn't being played as "slap" bass (or another type of stronger attack emphasis style), it's more of that plummy thumb-picked sound. In a live event though you can still hear where it (bass amplifier stack) is quite easily *unless* you are too far away (..when producing that sort of plummy bass line). (..personal experience on Austin's 14th street establishments.. )
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Old 5th April 2013, 07:49 PM   #2750
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
Yup.

I'm almost positive though that with something like "slap" bass that you'll see higher freq. bandwidth and amplitudes on a spectrograph.

Note though that the larger portion of music with that driving 40-50 Hz bass-line isn't being played as "slap" bass (or another type of stronger attack emphasis style), it's more of that plummy thumb-picked sound. In a live event though you can still hear where it (bass amplifier stack) is quite easily *unless* you are too far away (..when producing that sort of plummy bass line). (..personal experience on Austin's 14th street establishments.. )
Hi there S: Last time I was at at concert, the bass players were bowing the strings, rather than slapping at them, although some pizzicato technique was utilised. Also, I'm curious about the need to request a seat at a concert (or jazz club performance) in the "sweet spot". Most often, we listen to recorded music at home, negating "head in vice seating sweet spot". ...Michael
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