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Old 30th March 2013, 11:05 PM   #2541
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post

I still don't see the point of the floor standing CBT though. If I was going to use a speaker like that I would hang it from the ceiling. Why would you want the most output be on the floor level?
He's somewhat creating a point source but would you want the acoustic center on the floor?
The floor acts like a mirror, that's also why the curve has a 90 degree angle where it meets the floor. PE used to have an interesting clip of a lecture by Keele where this is explained, hope it is still there.

By the way, what Keele shows is lobing in the vertical plane as seen from a side view of the speakers. This looks very good. However, physics predicts that there will be lobing in the vertical plane as seen from a front view of the speakers. The solution presented by JBL seems better in this respect.
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:17 PM   #2542
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@ Pano #2503


Pano,

Great, I'd like to do an experiment with 'phase panning'. I am with family now to do egg related stuff and eat some really thin old school crackers, but once home I'll post on why this could be important and how to do it, and make some calculations on the time delays required, which I will PM to you. Probably just reinventing the wheel, but who cares.
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:20 PM   #2543
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The reality is that all line arrays whether they are curved or straight are going to have lobing caused by comb filtering. It will be greatest with the high frequency devices at any frequencies shorter than the dome diameters. Manufacturers always try to show their own designs in the best light and the competition in the worst case. That is just how it is. Identical test conditions or optimization of each device is seldom the end case.
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:21 PM   #2544
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vacuphile View Post
The floor acts like a mirror, that's also why the curve has a 90 degree angle where it meets the floor. PE used to have an interesting clip of a lecture by Keele where this is explained, hope it is still there.

By the way, what Keele shows is lobing in the vertical plane as seen from a side view of the speakers. This looks very good. However, physics predicts that there will be lobing in the vertical plane as seen from a front view of the speakers. The solution presented by JBL seems better in this respect.
It's not the first time I have seen these, I have seen the presentation you talk about from Keele . I have read all about it I could find and that's why I have these things that nag me.
I also know that the floor is supposed to act as a mirror for the CBT. It is suggested to fill in the other half of the CBT. But that still means the loudest level of sound is on the floor. Trace back the origin of the sound and you end up on floor level. There is the acoustic center of your (virtual) point source.
That's why I said I would hang it from the ceiling. But I'd rather have a 60 degree version floating between the ceiling and the floor (if you have the space)
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:26 PM   #2545
wesayso is online now wesayso  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
The reality is that all line arrays whether they are curved or straight are going to have lobing caused by comb filtering. It will be greatest with the high frequency devices at any frequencies shorter than the dome diameters.
That's why a lot of straight array designs use ribbon tweeters like for example Scaena. Another solution that is supposed to help is floor to ceiling array, this was tested by macintosh for their speaker line. I'll see if I can find the quote, it is somewhere on this board.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Manufacturers always try to show their own designs in the best light and the competition in the worst case. That is just how it is. Identical test conditions or optimization of each device is seldom the end case.
Exactly!

Last edited by wesayso; 30th March 2013 at 11:45 PM.
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:39 PM   #2546
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Wesayso,
I would suspect that the reason that 1khz was chosen was that it was the best best frequency centering that would give the smoothest polar response curves. That wasn't an arbitrary frequency selection I would imagine.
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:45 PM   #2547
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Wesayso, got your point.

The Greatful Dead half buried in your floor seems somewhat appropriate, but on first sight it would not seem to sound very natural. Ears are much worse in their ability to locate sound in the vertical plane than in the horizontal, but nonetheless the pinna is remarkeably effective in producing vertical cues. In all fairness, I never listened to these speakers, and according to Keele it isn't a problem. I hope someone on this site has first hand experience.
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:47 PM   #2548
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
Trace back the origin of the sound and you end up on floor level. There is the acoustic center of your (virtual) point source.
Maybe in theory, but it never sounded that way to me.
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Old 30th March 2013, 11:49 PM   #2549
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
I know, I saw the other pictures. But my point is the CBT that is for sale isn't the one in that simulation. The simulation is his best case scenario against a straight line array that's missing something to present it's case at it's best. Seems a bit unfair to me to compare it like that.

Like I said above, can't see the point of the ground plane CBT. I'd rather have the output as presented in the simulation.

IT WAS A PRESENTATION.

The sim.s are a point of reference or background to start understanding the design as it was altered.

Think of it more like a poor text-book rather than a marketing brochure.. (..the reality is somewhere in-between the two). (i.e. you need the background in chapter one - to progress to chapter 2.)

The ground-plane CBT is the *domestic* version, and comparing it to the domestic Revel - reveals it's advantages (..at least with a highly reflective floor).


Almost everyone would prefer a good sim. as reality, rather than reality.


As far as it being "unfair" - hardly IT'S STATED AS A SIMULATION. He then goes onto actually provide MEASUREMENTS . He isn't saying "you'll" get the results as simulated, he is saying these are the actual results under this condition.

Of course in a small-room context you won't get those results either - standing waves will intrude. Plus, most homes are likely to have more floor absorption than "perfectly reflecting".
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Old 31st March 2013, 12:29 AM   #2550
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OK, here's 3 more files, the same voice but differently panned. These are shorter and easier to hear the effect.

The direction should be much more obvious now, as I've panned the files 50% to one side in amplitude and delayed the softer channel by 5mS (~1.7 meters) to give it distance. Those effects combined pull the sound far left or far right. Amplitude or delay alone don't pull the sound as far as both combined.

For me, the "all pan" (full bandwidth panned) pulls entirely into one speaker or side of the headphone. The lo pan and hi pan don't, and sound different. Tell me what you hear. I find these similar on headphones and speakers, you may not.
Attached Files
File Type: zip wolf all pan.zip (860.9 KB, 18 views)
File Type: zip wolf hi pan.zip (899.9 KB, 17 views)
File Type: zip wolf lo pan.zip (885.3 KB, 17 views)
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