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Old 29th March 2013, 06:42 AM   #2431
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dewardh View Post
A simple test that anyone can do with even the most rudimentary DAW feeding their speakers . . . split a mono signal (anything will do, even Mozart) at 700 Hz., put the "above" in either (stereo) channel and pan the "below" back and forth, left and right.

Tell us whether you hear any difference.
Certainly if there are instruments that cover both sides of that range, you will hear constant shifting of image.
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Old 29th March 2013, 06:48 AM   #2432
soongsc is offline soongsc  Taiwan
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Originally Posted by FrankWW View Post
The problem with a small room is the reflected sounds can build up very fast due to dimension and direct and reflected sounds are smushed together, and adding absorbtion to it doesn't really solve the problem - it just makes it sound dead.
I would expect reflection to increase indirect sound path plus diffusion plus absorption to work best.
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Old 29th March 2013, 07:18 AM   #2433
FrankWW is offline FrankWW  Canada
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It's the speed of the build up of correlated HF reflections to a steady state which is too loud: they behave like noise. Subjectively, they mask the direct sound from the speakers including the recorded spaciousness cues. But too much absorption kills the modes necessary for reflection giving spaciousness and comfort. (Been there, got the T shirt - it doesn't take a lot of absorption. I also have a small back room full of books and music in there sounds really awful).

(LF can maybe sorted with multi subs and EQ since the problem with them is a scarcity of modes)



So, what's wrong with absorption on the wall behind and (maybe) beside the speakers, using directional speakers to avoid too early reflections, keeping the rest of the room live, using some diffusion in the live portion to give more decorrelated reflections. AND (gasp!) using delayed and rolled off helper surrounds to make the room subjectively larger? My thinking with this latter is that done right it ought to make the D/R ratio better, subjectively.


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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Frankww,
Then are we just at the mercy of the room modes and that is all there is to it? Diffusion is not going to do anything for the buildup of those pressure waves just bounce them over a wider area, so what is wrong with some specific absorption in a room? In a small room it would seem even more acute than in a large room with a higher loss factor and greater distances from all radiation sources. With a normal 2x4 stud wall and drywall construction again is that really a high loss membrane at the sound levels we can produce in a small room?
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Old 29th March 2013, 09:46 AM   #2434
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
My room is 14 ft. by 23 ft. The speakers are three ft. out of the corners (both walls) and toed in at 45 degrees. I don't think that a drawing would make it any clearer. There is nothing in the front of the room forward of the listening seats except the speakers (subs in corners behind the mains).
Thanks but where's the main listening position?
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Old 29th March 2013, 10:01 AM   #2435
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
The fact reamins that the dominate source of localization cues are > 700 Hz - thats all I have ever said.
No, you've said that <700Hz is unimportant. That's something entirely different.

I agree that >700Hz is dominant but this is not the same as saying <700Hz is unimportant. You might have never heard it because of the amount of LF dampening in your room. But most people listen in rooms that don't have good LF dampening. So you're talking about a special case that might not be very relevant to most of us.
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Old 29th March 2013, 10:27 AM   #2436
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I don't use nor do I believe in bass traps. They are not effective enough - my whole room walls are dampers - LF only. The corners are better places for subs.

I know that most rooms aren't built like mine - but they could be. What would I do in a normal room? Maybe rebuild it. Its easier than most people think. But band-aids to a common disastrous room? I don't have much experience with that. I don't do band-aids.
well, this is what 4 limp mass corner traps do:


Click the image to open in full size.


not too shabby hey?

Last edited by lolo; 29th March 2013 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 29th March 2013, 10:39 AM   #2437
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Originally Posted by ruinevil View Post
700Hz is a weird number... .
well, maybe it is a very good and convenient number when you build speakers.

just a compromise, maybe?
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Old 29th March 2013, 10:40 AM   #2438
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lolo, can't read the labels. Got a description/pictures of those absorbers?

Edit: Found the thread - http://www.gearslutz.com/board/8062579-post57.html

Last edited by markus76; 29th March 2013 at 10:46 AM.
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Old 29th March 2013, 10:45 AM   #2439
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I would think the proper test would be to create a signal with a fundamental at say 200 Hz and maybe 10 harmonics. Then delete the 200 and 400 Hz ones and see if the localization degrades. That's really the test that proves or disproves the claims, not that one can or cannot localize some signal below 700 Hz, only that below 700 Hz adds almost nothing to your localization ability. It is dominated by > 700 Hz. Thats the claim.
are we talking transients?

two examples. listen to Mahler's n.1 opening with Paul Magi. What the conductor achieved is a window in a trully new mental space. Can you localize the sounds?

next. 2L "Divertimenti", track 2. Can you now localize precisely every instrument despite the reverb?

Markus, here is the link for these traps:

http://www.gearslutz.com/board/bass-...absorbers.html

Last edited by lolo; 29th March 2013 at 10:48 AM.
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Old 29th March 2013, 11:19 AM   #2440
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Don't I remember Earl saying that he has three feet of foam stacked from floor to ceiling in his room against the front wall? Wouldn't we consider that in itself a room absorber that would reduce front wall reflections and act as a bass trap of sort for the entire room?
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