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Old 22nd March 2013, 04:56 PM   #2171
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Ok, great! I didn't know you were into the recording side of this. So you did multichannel recordings?
I have been talking about this for years and have been ignored for the most part. Im glad somebody thought to do it
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Old 22nd March 2013, 04:57 PM   #2172
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Our hearing has a better chance of removing a reflection from the far wall to the other ear because these two signals are less correlated. I think Keele should have used the word "correlated" rather than "coherent".
This is actually not true according to Haas. It is just the other way around. Don't overunderestimate the effects of innate brain processing on the perception of sound. The same goes for the whole discussion about interaural cross talk. As a physical concept it might make sense, but in a physiological way it doesn't.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 05:17 PM   #2173
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The same goes for the whole discussion about interaural cross talk. As a physical concept it might make sense, but in a physiological way it doesn't.
In what way does it make no sense? Care to elaborate?
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Old 22nd March 2013, 05:19 PM   #2174
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Originally Posted by Melo theory View Post
So you did multichannel recordings?
Yes, of course. Anything from 4 track cassette to Studer 24 track open reel. It was all long ago, so I've never done it on digital multi-track.

It did work very well for our intended purpose - theater, but I never heard it work convincingly in a small listening room. It was fun, but it was not a substitute for live.

One important thing I learned was that as cool as all the multi-track, multi-speaker technique was, all someone had to do was pick up a sax or a trumpet and play it in the same room - and it blew us away. No competition.
Without that reference, tho, it was worth the effort.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 05:27 PM   #2175
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Pano,
Thank you for that last reference to a horn player in the room and nothing sounding quit like that in reality. Even a horn player played back through an all horn system doesn't have that same transient response, the fast rise times and the directivity of a real instrument. When you can get an instrument let alone an entire band to have that sound you will be a world closer to the live event. But I don't think that any one of us can be fooled into believing that a reproduced instrument through the entire playback system has the same sound as a live instrument in a room. Close perhaps, but there are just those subtle clues that always give it away.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 06:31 PM   #2176
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We are starting to see the explore the difficulties of making a speaker sound like real instruments. I've done the experiment a few times, one channel/one speaker per instrument. It's fun, but it still doesn't sound exactly like the real thing.

As was mentioned this morning, the mic pics up the sound of the instrument at a point.
Then you play that single point recording back thru speakers that have their own radiation patterns - patterns that are not the same as the instrument. Double problem. You can't get the same pattern without heroic efforts.
The brain is very good at filling in the gaps, tho.
Pano,

There have been experiments done using dry multitrack recordings of orchestral works played back through individual speakers placed roughly how the orchestra would be placed on stage, done in many theaters noted for "good acoustics".

The "virtual orchestra" playback was then recorded in various seats of the various halls using a binaural head, tiny microphones placed in the head's ears.

Listening back on headphones, one can then compare the different room's acoustics without the usual long travel times and differences between orchestras and performance material.

Binaural recordings played back on headphones preserve both the inter-aural arrival time differences around the head and the effects of the pinna, which assist in vertical height (azimuth) and front and rear placement.

Unfortunately, unless the dummy's head has exactly the same pinna and size as your own, the results won't be perfect.
Still, the results can be amazingly realistic in preserving locational cues. While experimenting with a Sennheiser Binaural head/mic system, I once had my (ex) wife talk to me while I held the head in front of me listening on headphones.
I slowly turned the recording head around, and even though I was looking right at her, I felt compelled to look over my shoulder to see where her voice appeared to be coming from.

The binaural localization mostly falls apart when listened to on loudspeakers (unless located like Texas headphones) and tends to sound more like an ORTF recording done with peaky mics, the peaks caused by the imitation pinna and mic location in a small cavity.

An interesting binaural recording was done during the drum solo on the long version of Iron Butterfly's "Inna Gadda Da Vida" starting around 6 minutes in to the song.
The head was moved around the drums during the solo, listening to it on phones, it gives the same impression, though if you think of sitting still, the relative impression is the drums (and room) are moving around your location.
Listening to the same track on stereo loudspeakers sounds more like the drums are being played back through a phase-shifter effect, the far more usual studio trick of that era to achieve a similar type of sound.

The room you listen in tends to swamp the recorded cues unless the speaker's dispersion is well controlled and early reflections are damped.

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Old 22nd March 2013, 06:41 PM   #2177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Pano,
Thank you for that last reference to a horn player in the room and nothing sounding quit like that in reality. Even a horn player played back through an all horn system doesn't have that same transient response, the fast rise times and the directivity of a real instrument. When you can get an instrument let alone an entire band to have that sound you will be a world closer to the live event. But I don't think that any one of us can be fooled into believing that a reproduced instrument through the entire playback system has the same sound as a live instrument in a room. Close perhaps, but there are just those subtle clues that always give it away.
Dunlavy tried to compare the 2:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunlavy speaker test
Footnote 2: By "comparative listening" I mean comparing a speaker's output to live music. Dunlavy does extensive "live vs recorded" tests, using his large anechoic chamber to record classical chamber music and soloists. He plays back the recordings through his speakers and compares the sound with the performers playing live between the speakers. He also records the Colorado Springs Symphony Orchestra, and uses his tapes to check speaker accuracy.
Dunlavy Audio Labs Signature SC-VI loudspeaker Page 2 | Stereophile.com

I've seen more tests like this mentioned in the Dunlavy history.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 07:19 PM   #2178
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Ok, well this way of reproduction may not compare to actual intruments being played in a room but it sure beats the pants off of any other way i'm sure. Geeeeeze
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Old 22nd March 2013, 07:20 PM   #2179
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The room you listen in tends to swamp the recorded cues unless the speaker's dispersion is well controlled and early reflections are damped.

Art
This is an important statement. You need directional speakers to increase the direct to reflected ratio, raise the clarity and preserve the location cues in the recording. When this is done, the effect is much more realistic. It is not the real thing, but it gets closest to what's on the recording.
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Old 22nd March 2013, 07:21 PM   #2180
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and the whole point of it being, it would be simple to do because 5.1 or 7.1 systems are readily available.
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