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Old 18th March 2013, 01:15 AM   #1941
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
I am sorry, unless you love silly compromises, I cannot think of any ideal(or not) situation where a reflection is better than a actual channel of information.
Spoken like a technician . . . not a thought for the thousands of two channel recordings that already exist.

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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
You obviously have never heard of(or heard) multichannel audio.
Perhaps the most astute and intelligent thing you have said in this thread . . .

I'll leave it at that.
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Old 18th March 2013, 01:21 AM   #1942
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
One is real, the other is not, and let's be frank - there is nothing like the real thing. The brain has to work far to(o) hard with filling in the gaps than actually enjoying the music.
That's the goal: getting to the point where the brain can rest on its laurels -- that's what's actually happening when speakers become "invisible", and the imaging is always convincing: the brain can afford to be completely relaxed in picking up the clues, and never fails to "understand" the meaning of what is being presented. You can turn around, move to a corner of the room and talk to someone; and even at that moment the part of your brain still registering what the reproduction is "doing" is completely comfortable with what it hears ...

Frank
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Old 18th March 2013, 01:34 AM   #1943
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by Soundtrackmixer View Post
IMO stereo as a medium can present a " they are here" perspective pretty darn well, but fails with the "you are there" pretty miserably. The pipline when compared to multichannel is really quite small.
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Precisely my opinion as well.

Actually it can do that as well - which I think was Pano's original point.

The problem is that the effect is seemingly pretty rare (across a broad-spectrum of listeners), and even when done well it necessarily "skews" the perspective.

That "skew" is a sort of window perspective, or at the threshold of a space rather than being further into the space. It also includes a mirror-like inversion.

Stereo "Live" reproductions in particular have the audience *behind* the performers, and there is nothing that can be done about that with standard stereo.

Most recordings however can have their space "synthesized" to provide a more immersive perspective (multi-channel side/rear dsp), the only real problem with this is having the space recorded properly and using the correct space for the correct recording. It also happens to be a *much* better solution than any multi-channel surround recording I've heard. (..some multi-channel experience might convince me otherwise, but so far that hasn't happened.)

For me, the real demarcation point in this is that those setups that are far more of the "they are hear" variety - are (I've found) inferior to the "we are there" setups - when using *either* good multi-channel recordings or stereo with synthesized side/rear channels, with the goal of creating a more compelling "we are there" experience. Specifically - those "they are here" systems tend to "shrink" the frontal portion of a venue in these cases, resulting in a rather strange venue perspective.


-of course a good binaural recording on a set of headphones can do stereo superbly. Plus, std. stereo can be convoled to binaural.
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Last edited by ScottG; 18th March 2013 at 01:38 AM.
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Old 18th March 2013, 01:42 AM   #1944
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Soundtracker,
If I remember correctly I think very early on a center channel was proposed for reproduction but was not adopted and two channel stereo is what we got. It would have appeared to be easy to do as I remember some of the first tape machines I ever saw were Ampex three track machines.
The problem was not getting it on tape, but getting it on the chosen media - a vinyl record. They found it could not be done without a bunch of compromises to fidelity, and abandon the effort.


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It is a shame that didn't happen as the center channel would have been superior to the illusion of a center channel that we get with two discrete channels. That being the case do you know of anyone who is using multitrack recording for music that is not on a film track?
Remember, multitrack is a way to an end. As far as doing multitracking on a 24 track analog tape, not many during recording. Too expensive in this day in time were recording budgets are very small, and the cost of tape is pretty high. Now I have heard of digital recordings transferred to analog multitrack(to get the edge off, or create a warmer effect), and then tranferred back to digital for mixing and mastering. This is very, very rare these days.


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Blueray would be a nice way to distribute the music as most of us already have one with a computer though it would probably be better as a stand alone device. I am not impressed by most multichannel HT amplifiers as of yet but I am sure in time some will get better than most consumer models.
What amps have you heard in the last five years? I personally don't do multichannel amps, but monoblocks in my reference theater and mixing rooms. However, I have a small multichannel music system based around a VERY good sounding high end receiver that trashes not only most high end stereo amps, but most high end multichannel as well(Arcam AVR600).

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I imagine there must be some high end models I am not aware of as I don't do home theater at this point in time. Since you work in the industry today what is the prognosis of great multitrack recordings and playback for music?
Multichannel music, or multitrack mixing? The two are quite different.
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Old 18th March 2013, 02:05 AM   #1945
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Souindtrackmixer,
Whether you use 24 tacks or more while mixing I don't really care ,but ending up with a multitrack final mix is what I am talking about to play back on a multichannel playback system. If you mix down to two tracks an then create a phantom third or more playback track that wouldn't be what I am talking about. If you were doing a minimalist recording with let's say five or seven discrete channels that could be taken straight to the Blue Ray disk, like a direct to disk two channel recording. That is what I am talking about. Perhaps a Chesky or someone like that could put something like that out though I know they are not what they were years ago.
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Old 18th March 2013, 02:08 AM   #1946
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
Stereo "Live" reproductions in particular have the audience *behind* the performers, and there is nothing that can be done about that with standard stereo.
Which IMO detracks from the believeabilty of the recording.

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Most recordings however can have their space "synthesized" to provide a more immersive perspective (multi-channel side/rear dsp), the only real problem with this is having the space recorded properly and using the correct space for the correct recording. It also happens to be a *much* better solution than any multi-channel surround recording I've heard. (..some multi-channel experience might convince me otherwise, but so far that hasn't happened.)
Why synthesize the space rather than just capturing it and presenting it naturally?

Quote:
For me, the real demarcation point in this is that those setups that are far more of the "they are hear" variety - are (I've found) inferior to the "we are there" setups - when using *either* good multi-channel recordings or stereo with synthesized side/rear channels, with the goal of creating a more compelling "we are there" experience. Specifically - those "they are here" systems tend to "shrink" the frontal portion of a venue in these cases, resulting in a rather strange venue perspective.
I think you are suffering from lack of exposure here, and miss the mark entirely in your last statement. I would imagine you were not listening on a well calibrated multichannel system, because in 12 years of doing multichannel recordings, I have never heard the side or rear information that was correlated enough with the front channels to shrink the front soundstage. You have to have common information at simular levels in all channels to do that, and that is not usually what is happening in multichannel music. The front speakers carry the primary information(the orchestra or band), and the sides and rear carry the hall ambience only. Have you ever heard a uncompressed high resolution 5.1 PCM recording? Have you ever heard a 5.1/7.1 DTS HD Master Audio, or Dolby TrueHD recording? If not, and DVD is what you base your perspective on, then you have already compromised the experience by listening to lossy compressed multichannel audio. You cannot base ANY opinion on that. Synthesized surround is a HUGE compromise compared to the real thing.


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-of course a good binaural recording on a set of headphones can do stereo superbly. Plus, std. stereo can be convoled to binaural.
I don't listen to headphones, I buy really good speakers. Binaural is not as good with speakers as with headphones.

What is seems to me is that most folks are not willing to push their state of the art forward, and are trying to drain the juice out of an already dried up piece of fruit. It is also apparent to me that not many folks have heard a high resolution surround recording played back on a high quality multichannel playback system that has been properly calibrated and aligned. So I am not surprised when I read "skewed" comments about multichannel that are completely foreign to me.
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Old 18th March 2013, 02:21 AM   #1947
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Souindtrackmixer,
Whether you use 24 tacks or more while mixing I don't really care ,but ending up with a multitrack final mix is what I am talking about to play back on a multichannel playback system.
It is not going to happen as it is not even practical. I think you are confused here. Multitracking is a way to get more recorded tracks for mixdown, it is not a playback medium for the end user. Multitrack recorders(at least the good ones) are pretty darn expensive, and out of the budget of most folks. We can't even get HT folks to widely adopt 7.1, and you cannot get two channel folks past two channel. How do you get ANYONE(except for maybe me) to adopt to 24 channels of audio to playback on 24 discrete speakers?

There is absolutely no advantage to sending 24/48/96 tracks to the end user based on this.


Quote:
If you mix down to two tracks an then create a phantom third or more playback track that wouldn't be what I am talking about.
I now understand what you are talking about.


Quote:
If you were doing a minimalist recording with let's say five or seven discrete channels that could be taken straight to the Blue Ray disk, like a direct to disk two channel recording. That is what I am talking about. Perhaps a Chesky or someone like that could put something like that out though I know they are not what they were years ago.
Chesky does this quite frequently. I have done it with small ensembles, and have heard it done on some of my jazz and classical commercial multichannel recordings. However, it is not practical at all with large orchestras, or recording spaces with average to poor acoustics. The other issue is the quality of the performers, and their ability to make few or no mistakes, and know how to personally balance themselves. This is a rarity these days. One sqeek of a oboe or clarinet, and the recording is ruined. With what recordings cost these days, no producer wants to take that chance unless they infalible trust the performers.
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Last edited by Soundtrackmixer; 18th March 2013 at 02:31 AM.
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Old 18th March 2013, 02:23 AM   #1948
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Soundtrack,
You are very correct I haven't heard what you are talking about. I really don't watch movies at home, I go to the movies for the experience of the large screen and so have no reference point. that is why I am asking you, that seems to be your forte. I am only asking in reference to music, not music related to a movie sound track. I'll let you pontificate on that. And by the way what is the high quality receiver that you are talking about. Eventually I will build a complete multichannel amplifier system but haven't done that yet. And then knowing which multichannel front end to use would be something else.
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Old 18th March 2013, 02:41 AM   #1949
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
Soundtrack,
You are very correct I haven't heard what you are talking about. I really don't watch movies at home, I go to the movies for the experience of the large screen and so have no reference point. that is why I am asking you, that seems to be your forte. I am only asking in reference to music, not music related to a movie sound track. I'll let you pontificate on that. And by the way what is the high quality receiver that you are talking about. Eventually I will build a complete multichannel amplifier system but haven't done that yet. And then knowing which multichannel front end to use would be something else.
The one I was referring to is the Arcam AVR600. I have not heard a receiver that sounds even close to good as this one, and I have heard a lot of receivers.

I have a 200" screen setup in my reference theater(yes that is 16 foot wide screen as viewed from 14ft away), and I can better the theatrical presentation right in my home. That includes 3D as well. It is a Cinerama screen(curved) to increase the sense of visual immersion. I never go to a commerical theaters - the experience is far too underwhelming.
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Old 18th March 2013, 03:04 AM   #1950
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Originally Posted by fas42 View Post
That's the goal: getting to the point where the brain can rest on its laurels -- that's what's actually happening when speakers become "invisible", and the imaging is always convincing: the brain can afford to be completely relaxed in picking up the clues, and never fails to "understand" the meaning of what is being presented. You can turn around, move to a corner of the room and talk to someone; and even at that moment the part of your brain still registering what the reproduction is "doing" is completely comfortable with what it hears ...

Frank
I dont want to be rude, but even my pc logitech speakers gives me enough to be able to follow the music and to appreciate it. If anyone cannot appreciate music wihtout a goiod system, you have a serious problem.
My brain have fun with ipod buds, no problem. This audiophile thing is not true. It does not allow me to follow better the music, its just more appreciable, but it doesnt bring another dimension to the music, this is just us wanting to beleive that all our effort is worth it. Those details, those exact timbre are not important at all.
So you really fail to see the meaning of music without a good reproduction? maybe its the music you lsiten to that has lost the meaning, even for you.
Anyways, everyone is so biased all the time, that even their musical taste is not to be taken to seriously. everyone always just try to convince itself that they do it for the music, but those people are still listeing to the same thing they were 20 years ago claiming nothing else have come out as good since then. I really hope that theres a lot of people in here that still discovers music, enjoys it with all their hearts without thinking every ten minutes about the sound "quality", but I fear that it is really hard. I have been cought in what im describing for 2 years, its been around only 3 month that I really dont let myself "doubt" the sound quality anymore, lifes too short, it bring to much suffering, for too little return.
I think that the policy of diminushing return also applies to diminushing of pleasure
okay, you can just forget all that I said, it wasnt meant for you. but damn this hobby was detrimental for me for too long, and im still trying to not let myself think about the sound, just listen to the ******* song, and thats hard, and thats suck. I probably should have never went into this. even if mys system is really good sounding I mean the sound is so good that I get distracted by how powerful the sound is, whatever!
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