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Old 17th March 2013, 09:16 PM   #1921
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
No I thought that he was serious . . .
Well I was, to a point . . . but . . . Pano “got it”. "Stereo" is, after all, one of those "what does that mean" terms . . .

I listen (mostly, but not exclusively) to “classical” music, aim for a “listening area” rather than a “sweet spot”, own dipoles, and have optimized accordingly. The “front wall” is of course a significant part of that optimization. It seems to work OK for everything else (except for “turn it up to 11”, which I don’t do any more). If I listened mostly to studio-mixed rock I’d probably have a system much more like Pano’s, optimize differently (not put so much emphasis on the “front wall” contribution), and be content that it worked OK for “classical” too.

But if you want a “wall of sound” you’ve got to have a wall, right ? ? ?
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Old 17th March 2013, 10:19 PM   #1922
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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I think that there is a lot more music types than "classical" and "hard rock". I think that there are two "types' of recordings - those that attempt to recreate a venue and those that take stereo as the medium. But there are a lot of music types using these two recording types. Stereo is excellent at one and notably limited at the other.
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Old 17th March 2013, 10:36 PM   #1923
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"Stereo as the medium" is a great idea but the problem is that there are no standards hence the medium is arbitrarily changing. Listen to Fagen's "Nightfly" followed by "Kamakiriad" followed by "Morph the Cat". Night and day.

Last edited by markus76; 17th March 2013 at 10:40 PM.
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Old 17th March 2013, 10:40 PM   #1924
lolo is offline lolo  France
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
I don't know if you caught my reference to IRCAM earlier in the thread, but that's where I learned multi-track. I've often worked with 24 track playback into 24 or more speakers, or 4 channel source into 40 speakers, and over at GRM (Radio France) up to 200 channels. So you might say I like multi-track.

However, with a good setup, stereo can do amazing things. In some ways even more amazing than multi-track. I know, I've heard it done many times. It can be tough to do in small rooms, but that's a room limitation, not a stereo limitation. Anyone who says it doesn't work, just hasn't heard it done well, period. Classic stereo is capable of amazing realism. And that's a good thing, as so many millions of recordings were published in 2 track.
Ah! Pano.. please do tell us more about this experience, it sound really exciting, 2 channels vs 200...
I agree with you, stereo is a capable medium. But have we yet reached the full potential of plain stereo recording? I also think to make it properly work we need... veeeeery large rooms! ...
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Old 17th March 2013, 10:49 PM   #1925
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
"Stereo as the medium" is a great idea but the problem is that there are no standards hence the medium is arbitrarily changing.
A real shame, it could be so much better with standards like in film, but that doesn't change the basic premise.
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Old 17th March 2013, 10:52 PM   #1926
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Amazing, isn't it? I've noticed that too.
The flip side being that I've listened to movie audio with no image and been surprised at how good it can be.
The "truth" is that almost all recorded sound can sound amazing is if it's reproduced well enough ... , . Some time ago I thought of doing a cute trick: tap into the TV sound, get it to sound right, and send it out on either side of a tiddly, bedroom sized TV set. And watch people's faces when they switch it on ...

I note some here are annoyed, and feel that people are preaching. On the other hand, some people despair at the typical quality of playback and ask what can be done to improve things. Well, a decent first step is to supply motivation, and a realisable goal; if some are offended by that, well, IMO that is just too bad ... the bigger picture is far too important ...

Frank
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Old 17th March 2013, 11:07 PM   #1927
fas42 is offline fas42  Australia
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Originally Posted by dewardh View Post
I listen (mostly, but not exclusively) to “classical” music, aim for a “listening area” rather than a “sweet spot”, own dipoles, and have optimized accordingly. The “front wall” is of course a significant part of that optimization. It seems to work OK for everything else (except for “turn it up to 11”, which I don’t do any more). If I listened mostly to studio-mixed rock I’d probably have a system much more like Pano’s, optimize differently (not put so much emphasis on the “front wall” contribution), and be content that it worked OK for “classical” too.
Personally, I have found that when you get everything right, and I mean the total system here, then all music works. And I mean, all music.

As an example, I could listen to a Beethoven piano trio, then Foo Fighters 'at 11', and lastly a bit of languid, ambient music synthesizer "twiddling", and they all work! As music, they all make sense, and all feel worth listening to. To me, that's the goal of having an audio system, to make every recording a positive 'experience' ...

Frank
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Old 17th March 2013, 11:24 PM   #1928
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I think that there is a lot more music types than "classical" and "hard rock". I think that there are two "types' of recordings - those that attempt to recreate a venue and those that take stereo as the medium. But there are a lot of music types using these two recording types. Stereo is excellent at one and notably limited at the other.
IMO stereo as a medium can present a " they are here" perspective pretty darn well, but fails with the "you are there" pretty miserably. The pipline when compared to multichannel is really quite small.
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Old 17th March 2013, 11:34 PM   #1929
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I think that there is a lot more music types than "classical" and "hard rock".
Well duh . . . yes, those can be taken as recording "styles" also . . . but I find a discernible difference in how best to "present" . . . even if the orchestra is studio recorded (by an engineer who knows what he's doing).

I certainly wasn't intending to present an exhaustive list of music styles or genre . . . but rather to observe that some musical genre (and recording styles) benefit from front wall reflections while others don't . . . so you might choose to optimize where it matters to you. But it's not an "end of the world" difference . . . optimization for one style doesn't make the system useless for all others.
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Old 18th March 2013, 12:07 AM   #1930
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
"Stereo as the medium" is a great idea but the problem is that there are no standards hence the medium is arbitrarily changing. Listen to Fagen's "Nightfly" followed by "Kamakiriad" followed by "Morph the Cat". Night and day.
So what. It's art at that end. Do you want to standardize art? Listen to Pink Floyd. Most of their recordings involve manipulation of stereo as a medium. They exploited it as part of their art.
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