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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 17th March 2013, 05:06 PM   #1911
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
But you know what? Put a 65" TV screen between the speakers and all this becomes close to irrelevant because visual acuity is so much more dominant that the acoustic.
Hey, that's what I said . . .

Aren't we supposed to disagree about everything? (actually we seem to agree about 98.27% of the time these days . . .)
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Old 17th March 2013, 05:09 PM   #1912
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Classic stereo is capable of amazing realism.
Of course it's front wall reflections that make that possible . . .
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Old 17th March 2013, 05:19 PM   #1913
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Hmmm..... let me reflect on that a bit.
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Old 17th March 2013, 05:31 PM   #1914
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
I have been to enough concerts where the sound . . . was so utterly bad . . .
All things have their merits and shortcomings.
The problem "live" is to get all the sound to all the audience in proper balance. The "classical" (acoustic) solution is the reverberant hall . . . the "modern" (amplified) solution is mix-to-mono.

Two channels (stereo) presents the opportunity to "create" a sound experience that is rarely, if ever, heard in a "live" setting . . . if that's what you want. It certainly has the potential at least to be "better than live" in some respects . . .
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Old 17th March 2013, 05:39 PM   #1915
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dewardh,
That is to say that a live show is never done in stereo. Who says that all shows though most are mono aren't also done in stereo at times? When you are doing outside festival sound without a shell or any other rear reflective surface you are counting completely on the direct projection of the sound system and the sound from the instruments on the stage. I have been to more than one show and worked many where the sound was excellent and others where it was the pits. It came down to the mixing engineer more than anything else. If the guy at the console hasn't a clue it doesn't matter how good the sound system is. But in the right hands it can be a wonderful experience. Generalization only holds true some of the time and not all of the time.

ps. I don't think that Pano who is using a mostly horn loaded system is relying on the front wall to give him the effects that he is after, he is using very high directivity to accomplish his goals.
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Old 17th March 2013, 06:00 PM   #1916
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
That is to say that a live show is never done in stereo. . . . When you are doing outside festival sound without a shell or any other rear reflective surface you are counting completely on the direct projection of the sound system and the sound from the instruments on the stage.
Yes . . . if you want both sides of the audience (and the center) to hear the same show then the keyboard, the vocalist(s), percussion (if amplified) etc. are "mixed mono" without regard to location on stage. If the guitars depend on the back line then their speakers are close enough together to be a mono source through most of the audience, and if "augmented" through the PA that will be mixed in to provide uniform balance throughout the audience.

Do anything else and you will be inundated with complaints . . .
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Old 17th March 2013, 06:42 PM   #1917
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I usually mixed front of house in mono, or close to it. Definitely no hard L/R pans. I did try to create a little bit of an image, especially with jazz or latin stuff, horn section and such. Some guitar and key players have enough stereo effects to make it fun.

Kindhorn, you know he was joking about the wall, right?
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Old 17th March 2013, 06:57 PM   #1918
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Pano,
No I thought that he was serious as that is what so much of the disagreement is about on this thread. And I guess we have to qualify stereo as how much of that is anything but left to right panning anyway? So we can say that most stereo is panned mono signal really on most recordings. Not much stereo mic technique used in pop music I would imagine.
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Old 17th March 2013, 08:03 PM   #1919
gedlee is online now gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by Pano View Post
Kindhorn, you know he was joking about the wall, right?
You know that's the danger - I didn't realize that he was joking. There are some here who would believe that, but I can't keep straight who believes what.
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Old 17th March 2013, 08:07 PM   #1920
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Originally Posted by john k... View Post
But you know what? Put a 65" TV screen between the speakers and all this becomes close to irrelevant because visual acuity is so much more dominant that the acoustic. If it looks like the sound source is left of center, rear, then that is where you hear it from. 5.1 or 7.1 sound with picture trumps it all. I have some concert DVDs that are phenomenal to watch but turn off the picture and the recording is pretty bad. With picture on, after a few minutes, you don't even notice the poor audio quality.
I agree with this to a point. It is not that visual acuity dominates as much as it is visual and sound requires equal levels of brain processing at the same time. The brain has to divide itself between processing both, and much like all multitasking, cannot be perfect at doing both simultaneously.

You also have to take into consideration that 5.1/7.1 mixes created for today, are not nearly as spatially accurate across the front as those done for 6.0 or 7.1 back in the day(I could go on ad nausem about all of the variants of Dolby stereo and Magnetic tape and its benefits, but I won't). Having five speakers in the front allows for such spatial precision, having only three channels cannot compete. To compare, listen to a SDDS 7.1 versus a 5.1 foldown of the same mix.

Lastly, DVD is quite frankly yesterday.com. It is no longer relevant as a video medium. Bluray has stepped up as the premiere video carrier, and 480i and highly compressed Dolby Digital at 448kbps is low resolution both audio and visually when compared to Bluray. The experience of turning off the picture no longer result in a compromised audio experience.
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Last edited by Soundtrackmixer; 17th March 2013 at 08:21 PM.
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