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Old 15th March 2013, 03:35 PM   #1831
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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I would say that its the recording of the space that is the completely unnatural thing, the dry recording is the more realistic, handing it over to the room you are in, to add reverberation, as in reality. real world sounds do not contain the essence of the room in them already, the room imparts the essence of the room. the performance is unrelated to that and is different depending on where it is performed, instruments themselves do not speak of the reverberant space.

now of course recordings of performances in concert halls or other spaces are what we are used to and the acoustics of the concert hall may be more impressive than our homes and invoke a larger than life feeling; so we have traditionally strived to have a reasonably controlled room so that the recording of the space is more accurately conveyed, without a second space being incorporated into the mix, but to call this more natural is incorrect IMO.

Last edited by qusp; 15th March 2013 at 03:46 PM.
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Old 15th March 2013, 03:37 PM   #1832
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Kindhornman, sorry, I have to agree
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Old 15th March 2013, 03:49 PM   #1833
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by lolo View Post
but we are, LEDE believers! Just the other way around..and as long as we are not talking of unnatural RT's of 0.2 sec or such
Yes!

Control rooms are typically small, and don't provide the space to get monitors sufficiently far from the front wall. And the monitors themselves are typically small, and suffer woofer bloom well up into the lower midrange. It should be no surprise that in such an environment a dead front wall (and a relatively dead room overall) would be advantageous. For many of us our listening rooms are different, and pose different acoustic problems. What works (perhaps) in the control room (for control room purposes) doesn't work for us (for satisfying music reproduction).

Further, for most music styles (and for movies), the recording engineer is trying to create an "acoustic scene" de novo, whereas for orchestral recordings there is an actual "acoustic scene" to be reproduced . . . in overall feeling and as well as one can, anyway. This difference in intent has repercussions all the way up and down the recording/reproduction chain . . . these discussions need always be framed by the question "what's it supposed to sound like?" and, at least as important, "who's doing the supposing?".
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Old 15th March 2013, 03:59 PM   #1834
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by Kindhornman View Post
ultimately to recreate the sound that the engineer had in mind in the first place we would be using the live end dead end model with the speakers soffit mounted. By pushing the speakers out into the room we have changed the paradigm completely that was used to create the original source
There's that basic presumption . . . that the "original source" is the recording engineer's control room. Where that is true our listening rooms and reproduction equipment should strive to match that control room.

For orchestral recordings the original source exists outside the control room (which is just a way station between the concert hall and the listening room). What it "sounds like" in the control room doesn't matter.
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Old 15th March 2013, 04:21 PM   #1835
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There's that basic presumption . . . that the "original source" is the recording engineer's control room. Where that is true our listening rooms and reproduction equipment should strive to match that control room.
It is true for about 99% of all recordings.

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For orchestral recordings the original source exists outside the control room (which is just a way station between the concert hall and the listening room). What it "sounds like" in the control room doesn't matter.
It might not matter to you but how many recordings exist that didn't undergo post production in a *drum roll* control room??
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Old 15th March 2013, 04:30 PM   #1836
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dewardh,
I don't know what recording studios you have been in but the better ones I have been in I wouldn't call small in the least. And the front wall is the live end, there is a rather large window, tilted down typically that is there, I am not talking about a blind room for final mix where you no longer see the performers, you are looking at them through a large glass window. How is that a damped front wall? The front wall is very live. the back wall is usually very dead with absorptive wall. We are talking about music, I will not bring movie tracks into the discussion that has nothing to do with music reproduction, that is a completely different paradigm. If we are going to talk about movie tracks we have to talk about multi-track playback and distributed sound systems. We can't mix these two very disparate sound sources together, if you do that neither one will be done correctly.
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Old 15th March 2013, 04:39 PM   #1837
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dry recordings to me are bad because "dry" does not exist in nature.. In music's history this is a very recent, unfortunate development that should never have happened. We should remember this fact when we try to assess "what is best"...
Music is not point in space because instruments are not.. points! They do not radiate like that.. I listen mostly to music with real instruments, not synthetic sounds and mixes so I care about the conditions that makes that music come through first and I tolerate a slight loss for the other types, not the other way around..
I am a believer of SL's theories, that the sound shoud not come from the speakers only, and that is should be balanced with the natural reverberation of a balanced room (not a reverberation chamber!).
At the moment mine is 0.4 sec, with a decent ITD gap of 10ms. I am sure it could get much better, but there is no way I will make it an anechoic bat cave just because this is how control rooms are set to make artificial recording shine through!
And as you say, it just takes two listening spots, one close, one further to enjoy all styles. When I put some electro, I seat just a little over a meter from the speakers and reach full bliss.
Real sound sources are complex radiators in space, but microphones and ears receive summation at fixed perspective. Head motion with reproduced sound reveals fixed perspective of microphones and speakers.

SL believes in compromise; good reproduction in modest domestic living spaces, with normal furnishings. So do I.

SL also believes that highly coherent speakers make reflections at any level less intrusive.
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Old 15th March 2013, 04:54 PM   #1838
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I am a believer of SL's theories, that the sound shoud not come from the speakers only, and that is should be balanced with the natural reverberation of a balanced room (not a reverberation chamber!).
More like Dr. Bose's theory.
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Last edited by john k...; 15th March 2013 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 15th March 2013, 05:41 PM   #1839
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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It is true for about 99% of all recordings.
I don't read 99% of what's published (even here on diyaudio) and I hardly ever listen to 99% of what's recorded. On those rare occasions when I might do so I don't much concern myself with the "accuracy" or the "imaging" of the obviously contrived presentations. I have noted that very few in the audience for that 99% show any evidence of caring either. So I find it a little . . . peculiar . . . when "audiophiles" wax poetic about the presentation of "music" intended for the iPod or the "automobile listening environment".

YMMV
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Old 15th March 2013, 05:51 PM   #1840
qusp is offline qusp  Australia
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haha, thats gotta be one of the most arrogant posts ive seen in a long time. i've got news for you, the vast majority of ALL types of music is recorded with several mics, a few for fill, soloists etc and then mixed afterwards in a control room, even those claiming to be live. 99.9% is understating it, far less than 1 in 1000 recordings will be just a mic in a room, which seems to be the only style accepted by you as pure. The rest of the world enjoys only a pale approximation of real musical appreciation.

I would argue that the girl in a **** Datsun on the way to work with a bad radio, probably has a more pure musical enjoyment without all the audiophile hangups to get in the way.

Last edited by qusp; 15th March 2013 at 05:57 PM.
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