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Old 7th March 2013, 05:17 PM   #1431
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
Could you post a in-room IR from your listening position as a sound file?
WAV, ASCII or CSV format?
Microphone vertical or horizontal (my calibration is for 0 only)?
One speaker, both speakers together and/or each speaker?

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Old 7th March 2013, 05:19 PM   #1432
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.wav, single speaker please.
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Old 7th March 2013, 06:02 PM   #1433
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It would seem rather intuitively that as frequency rises directivity and the ability to localize sounds increases. As we go lower into the band room modes are going to contribute much more in a steady state condition no matter what room treatment you may use in a normally constructed home situation. Now in a large space, an auditorium or concert venue things are much easier to manipulate when it comes to directivity, dynamic response and other issues if these are originally considered in the construction of the space. Now when it comes to a loudspeaker alone in a room we again have limitation of what will normally be acceptable. Most of us are not going to have large bass horns in rooms, anything that is going to control wavelengths down below 200hz is just to large typically unless you have a man cave or such. So we are really stuck with control above these frequencies at best. I agree that a horn loaded system will always be the easiest type reproducer to control dispersion into the room, but then you will have much stronger rear wall reflection and depending on the depth vs width of the room this can be a fairly short time frame or in a larger room of say 25 foot depth a longer reflective time that we would probably discount. Again, are we only to look at directivity as regards the term dynamic response, or do we have to look at the overall combined room response across the entire bandwidth of the devices in question. I guess if you had an omni directional device places very close to the front wall or even in the corners that would be another case. There are just so many variables here, it seems you really have to chose two real models to have any real discussion of the differences rather than whole categories that have so much variation in implementation.
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Old 7th March 2013, 06:41 PM   #1434
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by Rudolf View Post
We must be well aware, that I'm not talking about primary stereo localisation in the free-field, but about localisation stability in the superimposed sound field: How does a reflection, arriving 5-15 ms late, affect the original stereo localisation?
Do you believe that the perception would turn into something completely opposite like day to night when we add few reflections ?

The room influences frequencies below 1kHz much more than freqs above 1kHz. Also the perception below 1kHz is influenced more by the room response.

It does not make sense to neglect this and focus only on the remainder high freqs that are being left mocked more gently by the room. I think correct first thing to do is to avoid room reflections influencing the precious freqs below 1kHz in the first place.

By the way, I think Toole is a rather bad reference here because while he talks about room reflections a lot in his book he does not make any differentiation between frequencies of those reflections and what perceptual effects different freq bands may have. His comments on room reflections are way too general to draw any conclusions.


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Last edited by Elias; 7th March 2013 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 7th March 2013, 06:54 PM   #1435
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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It would seem rather intuitively that as frequency rises directivity and the ability to localize sounds increases. As we go lower into the band room modes are going to contribute much more in a steady state condition no matter what room treatment you may use in a normally constructed home situation.
To get over this conventional blockage of thinking, one must understand the music signal in the room is not in a steady state. The envelope is not constant. Music is dynamic process, constantly chancing.

ITD perception is a possible below 1kHz, since the leading part of each tone/note/sound carries the information for ITD to be extracted.

More directional speakers below 1kHz allow longer part of each tone to reach to the listening position before reflections arrive. It is clear that more directional speakers at low-mid freqs are desirable for improved stereo reproduction.


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Old 7th March 2013, 07:02 PM   #1436
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Most recordings are amplitude panned. If such material exibits lower frequency localization errors when played back in a room, it has to be a phase problem that is caused by steady-state phenomena.
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Old 7th March 2013, 07:13 PM   #1437
Elias is offline Elias  Finland
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
it has to be a phase problem that is caused by steady-state phenomena.
No, steady state has nothing to do with it. The phase of the signal changes as soon as a reflection gets summed on it, from the very beginning the phase start to shift. This phase shift causes ITD to be what ever.
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Old 7th March 2013, 07:19 PM   #1438
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No, steady state has nothing to do with it. The phase of the signal changes as soon as a reflection gets summed on it, from the very beginning the phase start to shift. This phase shift causes ITD to be what ever.
Exactly but that is a steady state process. Wavelengths are largish, direct sound and reflections superimpose which shifts phase hence interchannel time differences change from what can be found on the recording.
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Old 7th March 2013, 07:25 PM   #1439
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Elias,
The question in my eye is whether the reflections actually cause a phase shift at all or if this is just a complex overlay of one signal on top of the other? Why would the delayed signal shift the original, why would it not just add a second source as all music does with complex signal?
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Old 7th March 2013, 07:43 PM   #1440
Rudolf is offline Rudolf  Germany
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Originally Posted by markus76 View Post
.wav, single speaker please.
Left speaker from listening position microphone horizontal:
www.dipolplus.de/assets2/Hoerp_links_waag.wav

Left speaker from listening position microphone vertical:
www.dipolplus.de/assets2/Hoerpl_links_senk.wav

Have fun

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