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Old 5th March 2013, 04:38 PM   #1311
ra7 is offline ra7  United States
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The results in this post (Linkwitz Orions beaten by Behringer.... what!!?) show that the MTF is nearly the same for a direct radiator and a horn. Same goes for the STI measurement Tom was talking about.
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Old 5th March 2013, 04:39 PM   #1312
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by dewardh View Post
This is oft repeated, but in my (dipole) experience it is not necessarily true.
I think that this is necessarily true, at least for very early reflections. I even asked the expert - Jens Blauert - once if he agreed and he said that he did.
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My impression (and experience) is that "spaciousness" and "imaging" are the results of different processes . . .
Wel they are and they aren't. Spaciousness is an effect that happens over a long time period of some 50 ms, imaging is dominated by the first few ms. They are in conflict over the first few ms. but after that they are completly independent. That is why controling the first few ms is the critical part for imaging, but then let the room reflect its way to good spaciousness. If you examine the requirements to do that you will find that the narrower the directivity the better. Dipoles are certainly better at this than monopoles, but no where near as good as waveguides. And that is precisely how I rank the imaging qualities of these different designs.
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and they can coexist within achievable listening environments. It may be true, however, with highly directional speakers, where you might get "good imaging" if you point them at the listener, and "spaciousness" if you point them at the walls. A dipole can do both, and give you both, at the same time . . .
Well I agree that you can have both, but I don't agree that dipoles are the optimum. The fact that the most common speaker that people had before they buy mine are Orions is significant in this regard.

And I do NOT point the waveguides at the listener, but away from them.

Last edited by gedlee; 5th March 2013 at 04:41 PM.
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Old 5th March 2013, 04:44 PM   #1313
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by ra7 View Post
The results in this post (Linkwitz Orions beaten by Behringer.... what!!?) show that the MTF is nearly the same for a direct radiator and a horn. Same goes for the STI measurement Tom was talking about.
They were different, but the problem is that we do not know what is a significant difference. All speakers are going to be 1.0 at zero modulation. Its how fast do they fall - this is identical to a camera lense. But what is "significant"? It could be a few % and maybe its 50%.
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Old 5th March 2013, 04:59 PM   #1314
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
....... Dipoles are certainly better at this than monopoles, but no where near as good as waveguides. And that is precisely how I rank the imaging qualities of these different designs.

.....The fact that the most common speaker that people had before they buy mine are Orions is significant in this regard. ......
I have edited your comments from above.

When you make these statements that your speakers are the better and specifically that users of Orions are flocking to buy your waveguides, it begs the following question.

How many sets of your waveguide speakers are actually out there? I understand that you may not want to give precise numbers, so how about an order of magnitude. Is the order a multiple of ones, tens, hundreds or thousands? So are these former Orion owners numbering in the ones, tens, hundreds or thousands?

Since these threads invariably become infomercials for folks selling a product, I don't think my question is rude or unwarranted. It would help indicate the superiority of your prouct. A statement that you frequently make.
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Old 5th March 2013, 05:41 PM   #1315
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
I think that this is necessarily true, at least for very early reflections..
But . . . what "very early reflections"? Set up properly a dipole will have front wall reflections of distributed (and long) path length with almost nothing under 10 ms. Near side wall reflections which might be under 10 ms can be reduced by "aiming" the null, and far wall reflections will be more delayed by the greater path length (just as with "crossed in front" directional speakers, in the range where they are still directional).

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Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
Spaciousness is an effect that happens over a long time period of some 50 ms, imaging is dominated by the first few ms. They are in conflict over the first few ms. but after that they are completly independent. That is why controling the first few ms is the critical part for imaging, but then let the room reflect its way to good spaciousness..
Exactly what a properly set up dipole does.

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The fact that the most common speaker that people had before they buy mine are Orions is significant in this regard.
I would have thought you'd sold rather more speakers than that. I hope book sales remain good . . .
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Old 5th March 2013, 06:18 PM   #1316
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Well here's a question - perhaps academic.
Can we make a dynamic speaker sound like a less dynamic speaker? Could the JBL imitate the subjectively lower dynamics of the B&W?

For example, suppose you recorded the current flow thru the B&W and made that into an impulse that could run thru a convolver - then into the JBL for playback. Would the JBL then imitate the dynamics of the B&W?

Obviously it's not quite that simple, but you get the idea.
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Old 5th March 2013, 06:43 PM   #1317
gedlee is offline gedlee  United States
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Originally Posted by WithTarragon View Post
When you make these statements that your speakers are the better and specifically that users of Orions are flocking to buy your waveguides, it begs the following question.

How many sets of your waveguide speakers are actually out there?
I did not claim that my speakers were better than the Orions, that may be implied, but there can be other factors. They do have better and narrower directivity control, that is irrefutable and the data is posted on my web site.

There are more than hundreds, but probably less than a thousand - but not much less I would guess. I have been selling them for more than nine years, but since they are hand made in my spare time the volume of production is decidedly low.

Some day someone will figure out how low cost they could be made if made in volume and then all this will change. We tried doing this in Thailand back in 2007 - but 2007 was probably the worst year possible to "start-up a business". So while we did have a volume production setup, it could not move past the banking crisis. Then it was restart from scratch with 0$ for start-up costs.
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Old 5th March 2013, 07:02 PM   #1318
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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Can we make a dynamic speaker sound like a less dynamic speaker?
Probably. Just layer in some reverb or "reflections". . .
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Old 5th March 2013, 07:13 PM   #1319
dewardh is offline dewardh  United States
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probably less than a thousand . . . Some day someone will figure out how low cost they could be made if made in volume and then all this will change.
Damn . . . I would have thought more.

The "Econowave" people are (sort of) pushing cost down (a bit) on the DIY front . . . one wonders how many of them are getting made. And Behringer is already 3/4 of the way there with their "Eurolive" line . . . it wouldn't take much (better drivers, fix the horn profile) to move them from "good for the price" to very good indeed (for applications where horns are the right choice).
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Old 5th March 2013, 07:25 PM   #1320
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As a molder I can tell you that it very much depends on the materials you decide to make the waveguide out of and the tooling requirements. Some materials require steel tooling and other can be done in aluminum. Flanges and other details add to the tooling costs. The quantity of production also changes the final price as there would be a setup cost to produce the items and this is amortized into the production quantity and the minimum material buy that comes with specific materials. I actually owned the patent to make horns out of polyurethane material long ago and could have put lawsuits against some others who went that route. I still own the equipment that I originally purchased for the original sole purpose of producing waveguides, believe me that was not cheap.
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