Soundtrackmixer, what do you think of this idea?
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/36254-try-ambiophonics-your-speakers-55.html#post2862500
Could you make a recording like this? I don't think it's been done before
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/36254-try-ambiophonics-your-speakers-55.html#post2862500
Could you make a recording like this? I don't think it's been done before
Information capacity of recordings has exceeded resolution capacity of playback systems from the get go; and remains at least a magnitude of order ahead of current state of the art drivers.
Truly high definition speakers haven't caught on with the masses because they've been diverted by the HT craze and portable horrors.
Multichannel sound starts with two speakers. For any pairing of channels, the spaces in between can only be filled in with a phantom image formed from complex yet correlated signals sent to the paired speakers. Spatial resolution of the phantom image relates directly to the spatial resolution of the speakers.
Spatial aberration of speaker relating to geometry of speaker in terms of diffraction, reflection and re-radiation cause distortion of virtual source location of speaker from a point to a diffuse shape occupying the image space. This spacial signature is convolved onto all image elements within a phantom image. When image elements are close together this leads to blurring of the image elements together.
Doesn't matter if angle between two speakers is 15, 30, 60 degrees in this regard.
If you can't get "you are there" view between speakers, more speakers doesn't help.
When recording is well enough done to achieve "they are here" between two speakers, it's the speaker's lack of resolution that prevents hearing the space that is most likely present in the recording too.
Not only is physical geometry of speaker causing spatial distortion, non linear behavior of speaker drivers raise further havoc.
Harmonic distortion of 1% or greater is ignorable by many listeners, and this is readily the case with a single channel, but the case changes with phantom images generated by complex correlated signals. The associated intermodulation distortion forms from all image elements present, forming new image elements. Differences in IMD elements for each channel is program dependent over time, reducing correlation, and imaging specificity.
IMD image elements involving direct sound of image element may form at levels higher than reverberant image element associated with direct sound image element. This has masking effect of intended spatial elements. Direct image elements are left standing out in ill defined spatial image element field made with IMD basis. This puts performers in listening space instead of placing listener in performance space.
My Pluto Clones with DSP correcting frequency response and correcting phase response, not only disappear, they take the walls with them. This happens with great recordings, be they from the 1950's or last week.
More speakers do help because for realistic envelopment and spaciousness our hearing has to receive information from other angles than two loudspeakers in front of us.
I don't want to make judgements, but seems like many of you have very strong opinions of where music bisness and listening styles are going.
To me it is obvious that the 2-ch reproduction is declining in quantity and quality. However there is a very strong market bot for mobile/headphones/radioplay/car etc. low-fi reproduction. It's a demand-supply thing, industry/business. Not art to me.
And on the other hand there is a live and kicking culture of art music - classical and jazz mainly, but this scene is marginal to the other (in a business sense) and I'd like to see it going towards hires/multichannel audio. The progressive rock scene might do that too. There are still many people like us here, that are willing to pay for good music reproduction at home.
The third scene is AV business, movies, music videos, concert videos. These are very clearly in the multichannel already.
I have had multichannel systems at home for 12 years and we enjoy them a lot. Most of 2-ch records are played using Dolby ProLogicII, because the soundfield in the room is better. The top-notch 2-ch setup is so difficult to install well that it deserves a dedicated room and most people just can't do that.
Multichannel - easy livin'!
Long live stereo!
To me it is obvious that the 2-ch reproduction is declining in quantity and quality. However there is a very strong market bot for mobile/headphones/radioplay/car etc. low-fi reproduction. It's a demand-supply thing, industry/business. Not art to me.
And on the other hand there is a live and kicking culture of art music - classical and jazz mainly, but this scene is marginal to the other (in a business sense) and I'd like to see it going towards hires/multichannel audio. The progressive rock scene might do that too. There are still many people like us here, that are willing to pay for good music reproduction at home.
The third scene is AV business, movies, music videos, concert videos. These are very clearly in the multichannel already.
I have had multichannel systems at home for 12 years and we enjoy them a lot. Most of 2-ch records are played using Dolby ProLogicII, because the soundfield in the room is better. The top-notch 2-ch setup is so difficult to install well that it deserves a dedicated room and most people just can't do that.
Multichannel - easy livin'!
Long live stereo!
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You are correct in saying that the space has been captured in the recording, the low level cues are there. But, it is not the speaker's fault if they are not heard, this is a system failure; the whole chain contributes to the loss of low level detail, the weaknesses along the reproduction path compound, and the spatial sound doesn't "happen" ...
Your style of speaker helps the process work better, but it can also be done with thoroughly conventional setups.
An analogy could be like trying to make butter from cream. As a child I watched my mother thrash and thrash and thrash the liquid and absolutely nothing happened. Then, as if by magic, out of the seemingly pointless frenzied activity would appears gobs of butter, and it was all over -- we had butter and milky water: a "miracle" had occurred ...
This is what it's like getting "big" sound from stereo: you make major efforts and are no better off, again and again. Then, just the right improvement is made, and "arena" sound arrives, space is everywhere ...
Frank
The trials I had with an ambio like setup and physical barrier made these low level cues become more apparent, in the same listening room. Trying with a portable small wood barrier right in front of the face and a 60 deg setup had the same effect. Cross talk seems to be at play there.
For good, thick and fast home cream, keep the ingredients veeery cold and whisk in a bowl on top of another bowl full of iced water.
There are so many factors at play -- one's playing a game with the hearing system, trying to fool it. And plenty of ways of going about it. What worked for me was achieving very low distortion levels in the treble reproduction; I've found that even cheap speakers do a good enough job if you feed them with a really, really clean signal.
Unfortunately, this is pretty hard to get right, often is worse with digital source, and makes the exercise of getting everything good enough very frustrating. But, it can be achieved, and very satisfying it is too ...
Frank
Unfortunately, this is pretty hard to get right, often is worse with digital source, and makes the exercise of getting everything good enough very frustrating. But, it can be achieved, and very satisfying it is too ...
Frank
the main barrier was fairly large, 1.8mx1.4m, the small one about 0.8x0.7 so I could pull it on/off easily. The effect is much less obviously, but you still get something out of it.
I am certainly no specialist in this field, but I did set mine so the longuest dimension was in the height. What you notice first is the heighs going from inside the triangle to outside of it, sometimes quite far off. Nice!
Then the subtle ambiance details I mentioned, I do feel the hall slightly better.
A heavy door would be perfect I reckon!
Then the subtle ambiance details I mentioned, I do feel the hall slightly better.
A heavy door would be perfect I reckon!
No, that's wrong. It can be done, I've heard it done several times and in the presence of witnesses
Usually it takes rather heroic means, but it can be done. When it's done right, the effect is so stunning that you simply forget that there are "not enough speakers". It doesn't matter. True, there isn't real envelopment like multi-channel, but your brain won't care.Not saying that adding some surround channels wouldn't make it ever more wonderful, but it's not something you think about when hear stereo done right.
In the more mundane world of the livingroom stereo system, I agree that multi-channel can go a great way toward creating a "You Are There" effect. It's basically forcing the illusion because the system (including the room) is not up to the task of doing stereo right. It's a compromise that works OK and is affordable. It's the reasonable economic trade-off.
Just because most people have never heard it, does NOT make it impossible. Stereo, done right, can create an amazing sense of real space.
Yeah! Now try that with tracks from Equinox and Roger Waters..
I did notice as well that the image collapsed too often when the angle was less then 20 degrees. Rear Surrounds on matrix with such setup works very well on classical recordings.
