Serious. The Soundblaster Live! 5.1 has an EMU 10K DSP chip on it, and can be had for ~$30 at good retail outlets. This is the same chip that is used in $600+ pro DSP units, the only difference being codec choice, and marketing tactics! Today I got one for the sole purpose of using it as an active crossover, and guess what? It works, and works well.
STANDARD DISCLAIMER APPLIES: if it doesn't work for you, it just means you're a guru of a different color, and it's NOT MY FAULT. If you take on this project, be aware that there is HUGE potential for success in store, but also huge amounts of potential frustration, and that you go into it of your own free will and choice.
You will NOT be able to do this with the drivers that come with the card. Thus, it works like this:
1. Buy the card.
2. Throw away the CD that comes with the card. Or use it as a clock, coaster, object of religious and/or sexual interest, or what-have-you.
3. download the kX driver set from http://kxproject.spb.ru/index.php?skip=1 .
4. Install the card and drivers.
5. Gnash your teeth for a week or so while you tweak settings in order to get the @!#$ drivers working properly. You may not skip this step.
6. USE A DIGITAL RECIEVER OR OTHER SOURCE to send your signals to the soundcard. Do NOT use the line-input. It uses the noisy, inferior, WHY-OH-WHY DID WE EVER USE THAT, AC97 codec to bring in analog line-level signals. Yuck! Fortunately, you can, fairly easily, get 6 channels of digital sound into the card.
7. Use the DSP program for the kX drivers to route your digital inputs through "freq splitter" plugins (or, if you're clever, write your own DSP code to do this) and then route the outputs to either the digital outs of your card, and then to a digital reciever / amp, or the analog outputs, and then into your amp.
While the controls aren't super-precise (I can't figure out how the slope adjustment works exactly, and it doesn't correlate to a filter order or dB/oct figure, I just know I like a setting of 3.0...) it does allow you to play with the crossover point with superb accuracy, and the tweaking is free, and requires no soldering!
The downside is that you have to have a computer running in order to make this happen. I'm working on that though. I'm thinking that perhaps, a $50 pro-level DIY DSP unit could be built based around this chip and the I2S codec, with 8 channels of input and output, digital and analog. If all else fails, you could do something REALLY crazy (like run the PSU for the computer fanless, and the CPU, and just use really huge heatsinks) in order to get that blessed silence you need in order to really enjoy your music.
Just thought I'd let you all know, this works really well, and I hope it can be of some advantage to someone else.
STANDARD DISCLAIMER APPLIES: if it doesn't work for you, it just means you're a guru of a different color, and it's NOT MY FAULT. If you take on this project, be aware that there is HUGE potential for success in store, but also huge amounts of potential frustration, and that you go into it of your own free will and choice.
You will NOT be able to do this with the drivers that come with the card. Thus, it works like this:
1. Buy the card.
2. Throw away the CD that comes with the card. Or use it as a clock, coaster, object of religious and/or sexual interest, or what-have-you.
3. download the kX driver set from http://kxproject.spb.ru/index.php?skip=1 .
4. Install the card and drivers.
5. Gnash your teeth for a week or so while you tweak settings in order to get the @!#$ drivers working properly. You may not skip this step.
6. USE A DIGITAL RECIEVER OR OTHER SOURCE to send your signals to the soundcard. Do NOT use the line-input. It uses the noisy, inferior, WHY-OH-WHY DID WE EVER USE THAT, AC97 codec to bring in analog line-level signals. Yuck! Fortunately, you can, fairly easily, get 6 channels of digital sound into the card.
7. Use the DSP program for the kX drivers to route your digital inputs through "freq splitter" plugins (or, if you're clever, write your own DSP code to do this) and then route the outputs to either the digital outs of your card, and then to a digital reciever / amp, or the analog outputs, and then into your amp.
While the controls aren't super-precise (I can't figure out how the slope adjustment works exactly, and it doesn't correlate to a filter order or dB/oct figure, I just know I like a setting of 3.0...) it does allow you to play with the crossover point with superb accuracy, and the tweaking is free, and requires no soldering!
The downside is that you have to have a computer running in order to make this happen. I'm working on that though. I'm thinking that perhaps, a $50 pro-level DIY DSP unit could be built based around this chip and the I2S codec, with 8 channels of input and output, digital and analog. If all else fails, you could do something REALLY crazy (like run the PSU for the computer fanless, and the CPU, and just use really huge heatsinks) in order to get that blessed silence you need in order to really enjoy your music.
Just thought I'd let you all know, this works really well, and I hope it can be of some advantage to someone else.
Hah, good point...
Though, you could get all the supporting parts for under $300, I think... just a cheap integrated motherboard / CPU / RAM / hard drive / CD-ROM + case, or an e-machine...
Or! Maybe one of those new Small Form Factor machines! That would be cool.
I guess the thing that's so exciting for me is that now I have three VERY powerful DSP engines in my computer and they all cost me less than $50 each. (I bought the first two a while ago, before the price dropped.)
Though, you could get all the supporting parts for under $300, I think... just a cheap integrated motherboard / CPU / RAM / hard drive / CD-ROM + case, or an e-machine...
Or! Maybe one of those new Small Form Factor machines! That would be cool.
I guess the thing that's so exciting for me is that now I have three VERY powerful DSP engines in my computer and they all cost me less than $50 each. (I bought the first two a while ago, before the price dropped.)
A digital active crossover using an old machine that's lying around and a cheap sound card...sounds very interesting.
Although I think having to wait for it to boot will be more annoying than getting rid of the fan noise
I have no practical experience with crossovers, so im curious as to whether this method would be comparable in output quality ( ie. ease of playing with digital slopes and crossover points etc. aside) to just a normal active analog crossover, considering the the cheap analog output connectors and (probably) mediocre DAC on the sound card?
You've got my attention. I'd like to see if anything develops on this...
Although I think having to wait for it to boot will be more annoying than getting rid of the fan noise
I have no practical experience with crossovers, so im curious as to whether this method would be comparable in output quality ( ie. ease of playing with digital slopes and crossover points etc. aside) to just a normal active analog crossover, considering the the cheap analog output connectors and (probably) mediocre DAC on the sound card?
You've got my attention. I'd like to see if anything develops on this...
Okay, here's the really aggravating thing, having played with it for a while.
The outputs on the card have pretty nice DACs, and I can fully exploit the 96 dB dynamic range that 16-bit gives to me, using these DACs.
Unfortunately, the *inputs* absolutely SUCK! Yes, there are digital inputs on the card, and if I used the digital inputs, I could have 6 channels in instead of 2, and better SNR, but the AC97 codec's ADC absolutely blows green chunks!
Is anyone out there knowledgeable about ADC's etc? Pro ADCs are horribly expensive, and I can't imagine that it's actually that expensive to produce a quality unit... Anyone know the answer to this?
The outputs on the card have pretty nice DACs, and I can fully exploit the 96 dB dynamic range that 16-bit gives to me, using these DACs.
Unfortunately, the *inputs* absolutely SUCK! Yes, there are digital inputs on the card, and if I used the digital inputs, I could have 6 channels in instead of 2, and better SNR, but the AC97 codec's ADC absolutely blows green chunks!
Is anyone out there knowledgeable about ADC's etc? Pro ADCs are horribly expensive, and I can't imagine that it's actually that expensive to produce a quality unit... Anyone know the answer to this?
Did you pick the SB (or EMU 10K should I say) because you can get drivers to do what you want?
I was thinking that there are many other budget cards, probably with a lot better ADC's and DAC's and less fraught with Creative's lies about its capabilities (not an SB fan, can you tell?) that could be of use.
I was thinking that there are many other budget cards, probably with a lot better ADC's and DAC's and less fraught with Creative's lies about its capabilities (not an SB fan, can you tell?
) that could be of use.
Well, the card is extremely capable.
Have you seen the kX drivers? In all seriousness, if you want to jump into the microcode on the chip and rewrite it, you can. Yesterday I had a LOT of fun, making a feedback loop with my mixer and the soundcard, using the soundcard to make a transposer effect. The end result? I don't know how to describe it, but it sounds like something off Star Trek.
Plus the digital crossover. Plus the high-quality MIDI synthesis. Plus the multitrack recording capability. Plus the reverb, echo, chorus, distortion, tube sound, and other effects that haven't even been written yet. All this for $30 a pop.
The only two downsides are (1) the sucky ADC on the card (I wonder if I could just shield this to make it better? Hmm.) (2) the lack of good synchronizing capabilities. (The cards drift out of sync at an absurd rate.) I'm wondering, seriously, could I design and build an 8-in 8-out (or maybe even 16; I think the chip would support that) DSP unit based on this chip, and price it reasonably? Failing that, can I at least get an inexpensive ADC that won't take my noisefloor up to -40 dB?
Have you seen the kX drivers? In all seriousness, if you want to jump into the microcode on the chip and rewrite it, you can. Yesterday I had a LOT of fun, making a feedback loop with my mixer and the soundcard, using the soundcard to make a transposer effect. The end result? I don't know how to describe it, but it sounds like something off Star Trek.
Plus the digital crossover. Plus the high-quality MIDI synthesis. Plus the multitrack recording capability. Plus the reverb, echo, chorus, distortion, tube sound, and other effects that haven't even been written yet. All this for $30 a pop.
The only two downsides are (1) the sucky ADC on the card (I wonder if I could just shield this to make it better? Hmm.) (2) the lack of good synchronizing capabilities. (The cards drift out of sync at an absurd rate.) I'm wondering, seriously, could I design and build an 8-in 8-out (or maybe even 16; I think the chip would support that) DSP unit based on this chip, and price it reasonably? Failing that, can I at least get an inexpensive ADC that won't take my noisefloor up to -40 dB?
Hi Nappylady,
You've hit the problem right on.
Warning: Rant...
Most consumer-level sound cards have really bad analog stages. And bad for both the inputs and the outputs. They are so bad, the the cheapest sub/sat computer speakers (Creative Soundworks PC Works by H.Kloss) can tell you how bad they are. How? A few years back, I was listening to a CD on my PC and noticed (finally) how noisy and distorted it sounded.
Are computer speakers this bad? No, since when I hooked up to my discman and played the same CD, the sound was much, much cleaner. Not audiophile, but better than many so-called bookshelf systems. It was so much better that I eventually put the "system" in my beat-up truck and stopped listening to my PC altogether. Go figure, Panasonic CD portable and Kloss for $150 retail.
But, before I installed it in the truck, I thought I would test the SB Soundcard by ripping the *.wav file onto the hard drive and then play the CD from there. Now I'm only using the DAC and the output stage. Still really bad, so my conclusion was to stay away from PC sound reproduction. Still do. To this day, I keep telling everyone (to no avail) that the only reason they can't hear how bad MP3 sounds is because they listen to everything on their computer.
Okay, end rant!
Because everything on the soundcard is surface mount, replacing components is going to be really, really difficult. I would check to see what IC chips are on it and get some MFG specs. I will guess that the ADC/DAC combo is not bad for SNR and the analog stages are the worst. Maybe even 741 op amps! Hopefully the digital section is not 14-bit which will make everything pointless. It will be a bit more work and look more like a Frankenstein, but you could reverse engineer the board, find the inputs and outputs of the digital section and hard wire it to a new in/out buffer you build on an "outboard" PCB. You could probably mount this in one of the spare drive bays (assuming Wintel PC) and re-wire the mini jacks with the new analog stage.
ensen.
You've hit the problem right on.
Warning: Rant...
Most consumer-level sound cards have really bad analog stages. And bad for both the inputs and the outputs. They are so bad, the the cheapest sub/sat computer speakers (Creative Soundworks PC Works by H.Kloss) can tell you how bad they are. How? A few years back, I was listening to a CD on my PC and noticed (finally) how noisy and distorted it sounded.
Are computer speakers this bad? No, since when I hooked up to my discman and played the same CD, the sound was much, much cleaner. Not audiophile, but better than many so-called bookshelf systems. It was so much better that I eventually put the "system" in my beat-up truck and stopped listening to my PC altogether. Go figure, Panasonic CD portable and Kloss for $150 retail.
But, before I installed it in the truck, I thought I would test the SB Soundcard by ripping the *.wav file onto the hard drive and then play the CD from there. Now I'm only using the DAC and the output stage. Still really bad, so my conclusion was to stay away from PC sound reproduction. Still do. To this day, I keep telling everyone (to no avail) that the only reason they can't hear how bad MP3 sounds is because they listen to everything on their computer.
Okay, end rant!
Because everything on the soundcard is surface mount, replacing components is going to be really, really difficult. I would check to see what IC chips are on it and get some MFG specs. I will guess that the ADC/DAC combo is not bad for SNR and the analog stages are the worst. Maybe even 741 op amps! Hopefully the digital section is not 14-bit which will make everything pointless. It will be a bit more work and look more like a Frankenstein, but you could reverse engineer the board, find the inputs and outputs of the digital section and hard wire it to a new in/out buffer you build on an "outboard" PCB. You could probably mount this in one of the spare drive bays (assuming Wintel PC) and re-wire the mini jacks with the new analog stage.
ensen.
That's ambitious, and also not what I'm going for at all...
I've tested the outputs, and found they're better than the discman's I have lying around... I also compared them against a $600 pair of pro CD players, and the CD players sound better. (*HUGE* surprise.) The CDs, however, are burned from MP3s, and even though the CD players have about the best CD player sound I've ever heard, any MP3 artifacting I can hear on the CD players, I can also hear on the original MP3 playing through the Soundlbaster Live!.
Remember that once you get into the Live! / Audigy realm, the DACs and output stages get much better.
It's the input stages I'm having a hard time with. A 40 dB noisefloor is simply unacceptable, and since I pass a lot of stuff through multiple soundcards, it gets worse at an amazing rate. I have found I can make things a bit better by reducing input gain and driving a hotter signal into it, but this only works to a point, and then I run out of 0's and 1's and digital clipping breaks my pretty sounds.
*sigh* I don't think there's a solution to this dilemma; while I'd like to know exactly *WHY* the pro-level ADCs are so expensive, I probably never will.
I've tested the outputs, and found they're better than the discman's I have lying around... I also compared them against a $600 pair of pro CD players, and the CD players sound better. (*HUGE* surprise.) The CDs, however, are burned from MP3s, and even though the CD players have about the best CD player sound I've ever heard, any MP3 artifacting I can hear on the CD players, I can also hear on the original MP3 playing through the Soundlbaster Live!.
Remember that once you get into the Live! / Audigy realm, the DACs and output stages get much better.
It's the input stages I'm having a hard time with. A 40 dB noisefloor is simply unacceptable, and since I pass a lot of stuff through multiple soundcards, it gets worse at an amazing rate. I have found I can make things a bit better by reducing input gain and driving a hotter signal into it, but this only works to a point, and then I run out of 0's and 1's and digital clipping breaks my pretty sounds.
*sigh* I don't think there's a solution to this dilemma; while I'd like to know exactly *WHY* the pro-level ADCs are so expensive, I probably never will.
Hi Nappy,
I was only offering one option for DIY upgrade to existing cheapo cards. If you say you are running out of bits, then maybe the ADC is less than 16-bit. If you are looking for better, maybe you can find some in some surplus instrumentation. That stuff can be had for fairly cheap when universities and technical schools make way for new equipment.
I've been looking at this for awhile too as an inexpensive way to use an old PC to add digital delay and have come the conclusion that the best value cards are from M-Audio. Decent in/out SNR and not too much more money than an Audigy.
ensen.
I was only offering one option for DIY upgrade to existing cheapo cards. If you say you are running out of bits, then maybe the ADC is less than 16-bit. If you are looking for better, maybe you can find some in some surplus instrumentation. That stuff can be had for fairly cheap when universities and technical schools make way for new equipment.
I've been looking at this for awhile too as an inexpensive way to use an old PC to add digital delay and have come the conclusion that the best value cards are from M-Audio. Decent in/out SNR and not too much more money than an Audigy.
ensen.
I was thinking about the M-Audio Revolution too. 24-bit/192kHz max, 105db SNR at a reasonable price IMO, but the question is whether the Envy24HT chip is progammable in the same way.
Nappylady said:
Hi Nap,
I am doing something similar to you, but standalone, with the Behringer Ultradrive PRO2496. The setup is close to what you describe: Analog (2ch via AKM ADCs) and digital input, then on to an AD 2106 SHARC DSP I think it is, then AKM DAC6 (6 ch). It's really a 2 x 3 ch digital xover, but with extras like parametric equalisation, filters, a wide range of xover options, level control, soft clipping, expand/compand if necessary. Free configurable until you run out of DSP power.
More expensive then your setup (450 US $ MSR), although, without the PC..
You may want to take a look at it, the manual is downloadable.
Jan Didden
mmm, I like Behringer products.
Something amazing just happened--I just clicked the link to that review and, in the review, it had a link to a page about an ADC that looks like it's actually got really good quality....
this is exactly what I've been looking for. Hmm. I wonder if I'm getting to ambitious, thinking about designing my own sound card.
Hmm.
Something amazing just happened--I just clicked the link to that review and, in the review, it had a link to a page about an ADC that looks like it's actually got really good quality....
this is exactly what I've been looking for. Hmm. I wonder if I'm getting to ambitious, thinking about designing my own sound card.
Hmm.
I dunno if this has already been said but using the comp to play wavs and using an external dac sounds miles better then the analog outs. The card is speked at 5.1 so surely you could use the digi out into a 5.1 home theater amp and get the fronts rears centre and sub all doind diff things. Just a thought.
Matt
Matt
Dears,
Others solutions:
http://pcazeles.perso.cegetel.net/acxo.htm
http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/
http://freshmeat.net/projects/drc/?topic_id=114
Tks,
Renato
Others solutions:
http://pcazeles.perso.cegetel.net/acxo.htm
http://home.pacbell.net/donwm/
http://freshmeat.net/projects/drc/?topic_id=114
Tks,
Renato
5th element said:
Agreed.
Nappylady, your limiting yourself with the SB stuff but I guess that's actually because you need one to run KX.
There seems to be almost a phobia against any sort of PC playback solution but its exactly because its been given a deserved bad rep by the SB stuff.
I wholeheartedly agree with you on the analogue in section, it is noisy and near useless for a decent setup. The outputs are also disappointing.
I've had the Live then the Audigy and finally the Audigy 2 ZS. All were below par and after initial experimenting as a front end I quickly went back to seperates.
It doesn't have to be that way though and there's decent pro level cards out there that would perhaps cost a similar amount to an Audigy and a decent DAC/ADC. The ones I'd recommend would be Lynx, RME mainly but there's others out there too.
Over on AVS Forum, a chap and his friends blind tested RME and Lynx cards against a Theta transport and an exotic DAC combo. The results were that the Lynx beat out the combo for absolute insight and the RME was similar on a musicality level. There wasn't much at all to choose between the lot actually.
The problem with moving over to a pro card is that you can't use KX but there's other solutions.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.