Hi,
I wish to build a horn speaker with the following design perameters-
Idealy a horn mid that covers the critical mid range, say around 400 to 2.5k or higher.
This horn would be idealy 18" wide (a bit more is acceptable) and have a roundover exit. The horn will also need to be a classic round shape, and have a uniform flat finish that can be painted in a gloss finish.
Foam inserts would be used to reduce potential for 'honk/ HOM)- Minimum 'honk' noise is a important factor for me.
The majority of the fund could be spent on this section.
The bass section would idealy comprise of drivers no larger than 10" and could use fairly cheap drivers.
The trebble would also be a horn design and should match the form of the mid horn.
System max spl in the region of 115db+ if possible, as these will be used for surround sound regularly.
Passive crossovers are a must.
My taste typically leans towards a slightly bright voicing if that helps.
The inspiration is the advantgarde trio/duo Avantgarde Acoustic
The budget is approx £1500 for a pair.
Any and all advice or help on this mamoth project is hugely appreciated
I wish to build a horn speaker with the following design perameters-
Idealy a horn mid that covers the critical mid range, say around 400 to 2.5k or higher.
This horn would be idealy 18" wide (a bit more is acceptable) and have a roundover exit. The horn will also need to be a classic round shape, and have a uniform flat finish that can be painted in a gloss finish.
Foam inserts would be used to reduce potential for 'honk/ HOM)- Minimum 'honk' noise is a important factor for me.
The majority of the fund could be spent on this section.
The bass section would idealy comprise of drivers no larger than 10" and could use fairly cheap drivers.
The trebble would also be a horn design and should match the form of the mid horn.
System max spl in the region of 115db+ if possible, as these will be used for surround sound regularly.
Passive crossovers are a must.
My taste typically leans towards a slightly bright voicing if that helps.
The inspiration is the advantgarde trio/duo Avantgarde Acoustic
The budget is approx £1500 for a pair.
Any and all advice or help on this mamoth project is hugely appreciated
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Ist things first-
The mid horn and driver-
This is one possible option-
1.0" Stereo Lab cf250 Hz Spheric Wave Tractrix Horn - STEREO LAB
They are in europe so delivery is possible. -the problem being that they are expensive and they dont have a roundover lip.
I idealy would like one of the jzagaja horns from the group buy jzagaja has on here, but it applys to the US and Im in the UK.
I would love a JMLC OR OSWG 18" horn with a roundover exit or even without+ I just make a roundover attachment, but I dont know if I can get it, as im not in the US.
question 2-
Will I need a 2" compression driver to get the required frequency range and the spl capability?
The mid horn and driver-
This is one possible option-
1.0" Stereo Lab cf250 Hz Spheric Wave Tractrix Horn - STEREO LAB
They are in europe so delivery is possible. -the problem being that they are expensive and they dont have a roundover lip.
I idealy would like one of the jzagaja horns from the group buy jzagaja has on here, but it applys to the US and Im in the UK.
I would love a JMLC OR OSWG 18" horn with a roundover exit or even without+ I just make a roundover attachment, but I dont know if I can get it, as im not in the US.
question 2-
Will I need a 2" compression driver to get the required frequency range and the spl capability?
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Update-
Im stuck between using a 350hz 1.4" entry horn and the 2" one.
the 2" driver I would use would likely be this
http://www.radianaudio.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/prod_files/651pb_760pb_850pb.pdf
The 850pb would be the best, and can be bought second hand fairly cheap.
The drawback to this is that its only going to be flat up to 10khz because of the horn- so will need a supertweeter on top. (-No idea what at this point)
The added cost isnt overly welcome, but I much prefer the aesthetics of having a small horn on top for this.
or 1.4" exit with a beyma 755ti or equivelent attached and no tweeter.- much cheaper, and simpler, but I realy like the look of a small horn on top.
Can anyone give me any advice on this?
bass/mid could be 2 AE 10" drivers 10x??
Im stuck between using a 350hz 1.4" entry horn and the 2" one.
the 2" driver I would use would likely be this
http://www.radianaudio.com/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/prod_files/651pb_760pb_850pb.pdf
The 850pb would be the best, and can be bought second hand fairly cheap.
The drawback to this is that its only going to be flat up to 10khz because of the horn- so will need a supertweeter on top. (-No idea what at this point)
The added cost isnt overly welcome, but I much prefer the aesthetics of having a small horn on top for this.
or 1.4" exit with a beyma 755ti or equivelent attached and no tweeter.- much cheaper, and simpler, but I realy like the look of a small horn on top.
Can anyone give me any advice on this?
bass/mid could be 2 AE 10" drivers 10x??
The horn loading has more to do with extension than the driver itself, particularly with a "soft" suspension driver. Hard (integrated) suspensions have substantially increased THD levels below resonance and aren't as useful in this application.
Diffraction can be lowered at the mouth via acoustic suppression in the form of a support frame that absorbs the diffraction from the horn mouth. (..this does NOT reference filling the horn with foam as the Gedlee products do.) This allows you to user a smaller diameter horn because the absence of need for a large round-over mouth exit.
The upper freq. response, especially in relation to dispersion and overall linearity, is largely dependent on the diameter of the compression driver. So to is the resulting size of the horn for a given lower freq. operation point. (..smaller means wider high freq. dispersion (horn dependent), extended linearity, and a smaller horn for a given lower freq. "cut-off".)
Combine all of this and the Stereolab you have provided a link to is probably your best bet with a 1" compression driver that has complaint surround (..like mylar). Then support the mouth of the horn via a stand that has various density foams/insulation to absorb the diffraction from the horn. The Radian 475PB would likely perform well (..not only having a compliant surround but also has a relatively low resonance when compared to other full-bandwidth 1" exit drivers).
This doesn't invalidate the JMMLC horns (which are likely better *built*).. BUT they will be larger for an equal operating low freq. bandwidth. On the other hand a diffraction suppression/absorption system would be less important.
Suggestion: Go listen to a system like this before you continue on with your project. Similar restraints usually result in a system that is *quite* directional (where you are using just one horn and one driver), and subjectively this is likely to be either something you like, or something you hate.
Caution: A multi-horn system is also possible, BUT you are talking about some thing much larger AND it would require *very* careful crossover work and horn/driver integration. You could of course use the system presented as a mid only, but again, you'll have issues with integration.
BTW, assuming you stick with your current plan of mid-horn and 1.4" exit drivers this is a good one:
http://www.eighteensound.com/index.aspx?mainMenu=view_product&pid=253
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Hello lbstyling,
The group buy is intended to limit the cost of the postage to US from Europ.
But if you contact Jack Zagaja I think there is no problem for you to order from UK apart the group buy.
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
The group buy is intended to limit the cost of the postage to US from Europ.
But if you contact Jack Zagaja I think there is no problem for you to order from UK apart the group buy.
Best regards from Paris, France
Jean-Michel Le Cléac'h
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I use the Stereo Lab 400hz 2" tractrix horn. It sounds great and is VERY well built. It is a great deal for the price.
Im looking at the 350hz jmlc horn, so this is a even bigger 60cm horn.
I would love to have a 15" bass driver, but the WAF comes into play here and she says no. I can get away with a pair of 10's maby 12's if im lucky, but thats it.
Looking somthing like this-
Google Image Result for http://www.itechnews.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/Avantgarde-Acoustics-G2-Series-Speakers.jpg
The JMLC 350hz horn is only usable down to 700hz or so anyway, so theres no need to necessarily have a response to 500hz. I dont know about using 4" compression drivers- I havent heard of anyone using them.-google search didnt turn up anything for a 2285 driver. -If you were suggesting somthing like a 2450, its out of my budget im afraid.
scottg- I plan to get a demo of the advantgarde acoustics speakers soon to re affirm my feelings on the sound- thankyou for the detailed advice.- as you can see from my earlyer statement, im going for a jmlc horn with the roundover exit for aesthetic reasons, so thats set. At this point, I just need to make a decision on the driver sise and the consequences - ie-3 way or 2. Either way, I would like to use a driver that gets good subjective press, asside from good measured results. Ive heard the 18sound is good, but many have sung the praise of the radian aswell from what i can gather, and that 18sounds units is rather spendy!
Active or Passive filter?
A 350 Hz JMMLC (depending on high-pass filter), could do 500 Hz.
Because you are looking at midrange only and you want to keep it less expensive, this is the driver I'd recommend:
http://www.critesspeakers.com/D405.pdf
Selenium Products | Critesspeakers.com
(I'd wager it sounds better than the Radian at mid freq.s once it's "broken in".)
BTW, on standard compression drivers the VC diameter pretty much tells you the diaphragm diameter.. so this would be a "4 inch" driver. The Radian 850PB is a "3 inch" driver. Of course both the exit's are 2".
For your treble compression driver look to:
Celestion CDX1-1425 - drivervault
Note: for increased dispersion pattern (and a more uniform one), at higher freq.s I'd recommend a modest size OS profile for your treble unit. That would sound different than the AG horns.
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I'm begining to look at something similar as an approach to loudspeakears. Combining a high quality woofer from 80-100hz to about 500-700 hz and a CD above that.
Scott, would the D220ti be your suggestion for getting my feet wet in the realm of horns and CDs? Which horn/WG would you suggest for going with the D220ti you linked above? Again, I'm looking at this as a starting point and want to keep spending at a minimum.
Scott, would the D220ti be your suggestion for getting my feet wet in the realm of horns and CDs? Which horn/WG would you suggest for going with the D220ti you linked above? Again, I'm looking at this as a starting point and want to keep spending at a minimum.
If spending is a minimum then look at the QSC HPR-152i waveguide (rectangle 10"x14") or the QSC HPR-122i round 10" waveguide.
The celestion 1745 is a good driver to match with either, it will play lower then the Celestion 1425. Those waveguides accept bolt on CDs so if you are considering the D220ti, get the bolt on version.
The celestion 1745 is a good driver to match with either, it will play lower then the Celestion 1425. Those waveguides accept bolt on CDs so if you are considering the D220ti, get the bolt on version.
That celestion QSC combination.. (NOT the D220ti. The difference in price is about 22 US each.)
Celestion CDX1-1425 - drivervault
Spend less and you can get a lot less value. Spend more and you won't get much more value.
A picture of the horn:
http://s139.photobucket.com/albums/...0446-GP/?action=view¤t=PL_000446_GP.jpg
EDIT:..or you know, what Doug said..
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Thanks for the help Doug and Scott!
How low do you think I can go with Celestion 1745 and the HPR122i waveguide combo?
I'm really looking at crossing near 500-700 Hz, not the usual 1kHz and up. I know that there are a lot of choices if the crossover point is raised above 1kHz.
Again, all the help is really appreciated!
How low do you think I can go with Celestion 1745 and the HPR122i waveguide combo?
I'm really looking at crossing near 500-700 Hz, not the usual 1kHz and up. I know that there are a lot of choices if the crossover point is raised above 1kHz.
Again, all the help is really appreciated!
I guess I missed the part about the 500-700Hz XO for this driver...I think we started to mix up the "treble driver" discussion with your mid bass horn needs. Sorry about that.
The 10" waveguide is too small to cross that low to start with and the 1745 wouldnt crossover below 1KHz either.
For a 500Hz XO, you need a horn/waveguide that is much, much larger, probably 18" or greater. The Lower you want to go with a horn the bigger it has to be. Then you also will need larger Compression Drivers.
The 10" waveguide is too small to cross that low to start with and the 1745 wouldnt crossover below 1KHz either.
For a 500Hz XO, you need a horn/waveguide that is much, much larger, probably 18" or greater. The Lower you want to go with a horn the bigger it has to be. Then you also will need larger Compression Drivers.
That's more in line with what I've been reading. Thanks doug!
Any suggestions, for driver+horns... cheaply available. I'm guessing not, but worth asking.
I've seen the stereo lab horns, seems like the cheapest option next to building your own. Of course, I'm trying to get a feel for the horn+CD sound before going all out.
Any suggestions, for driver+horns... cheaply available. I'm guessing not, but worth asking.
I've seen the stereo lab horns, seems like the cheapest option next to building your own. Of course, I'm trying to get a feel for the horn+CD sound before going all out.
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