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Old 20th August 2010, 03:56 PM   #21
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Rignt-o but without the side "diffusion" they are best wide, with the side "diffusion" I found that vertical gives a much tighter and clearer image... of course if you have a very reflective ceiling and/or floor something needs to be done about that... in the room in the pix the ceiling was very very high, so no prob... otherwise absorption is required imo.

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Old 20th August 2010, 04:13 PM   #22
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Yeah, I thought it might be. Mine is at 12', so not a big problem. I'll give it another try and report back. We always like free improvements!
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Old 20th August 2010, 05:21 PM   #23
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the listening position is only 12' away?

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Old 20th August 2010, 05:58 PM   #24
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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Naw, I'm not dancing on the ceiling. That's what's 12' up.

But I'm not far back, maybe 15'. Would certainly like to get back farther, if I could. That's one of the reasons the 1005s work better for me.
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Old 5th November 2010, 06:21 PM   #25
Kilroy is offline Kilroy  United States
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Default Why not a 'A7-Onken' hybrid?

Hope it's ok to bring this back up...

I can't read the language but here's a hybrid altec FLH-onken I thought was interesting...

Click the image to open in full size.

Which is actually just a variation on the Altec 816vi, I guess.

Click the image to open in full size.

Any thoughts on how a hybrid like this might work?
My thought would be that maybe the floor loading ports of the other altec FLHs might be better, but I've never heard any of them.

Sorry if I'm a bit slow, but just to verify what I think I'm hearing from the various threads on the Altec FLHs is that they're best if you can back away from them a bit?
I've got a got a big room with vaulted ceilings thats hard to fill with sound but the physical layout (not furniture etc) of the house forces you kind of close to the speakers. So I'm thinking maybe fonkens might better?

And how 'axis-critical' is it? Especially relatively near field?
They say it was designed for situations where 'directivity' is a concern... So I was just wondering?

Thanks,
Phil
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Old 5th November 2010, 06:41 PM   #26
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816 makes no bass... but from about 80 Hz up with correct 515 or 416 it can have magic moments!

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Old 6th November 2010, 06:19 AM   #27
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Then, if combing the short front horn and and volume of the Onken W, would there be any benefit?
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Old 6th November 2010, 10:30 AM   #28
Helmuth is offline Helmuth  Netherlands
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How important are the following goals.

Br area 85-90% Sd
Port length < 35cm = 1,16ft

Tuning can be adjusted to driver in my opinion, and when port length is more then 1ft or Br area < 80% cant make to much difference still be a good onken.


Can some one say something about how important this is?




It has some thing to do to have the same air mass in the port is the same as in the box. That is the goal in the onken design?

can not believe when you are a little of that figure it doesn't sound the same.
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Old 6th November 2010, 01:42 PM   #29
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That's a beautiful cabinet! Thanks for posting it.

It sure gives up a lot of box volume for the FLH. I would guess no deep bass and plenty of mid bass. As Cyclotronguy has noted.
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Old 6th November 2010, 05:05 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilroy View Post
Which is actually just a variation on the Altec 816vi, I guess.

Any thoughts on how a hybrid like this might work?

My thought would be that maybe the floor loading ports of the other altec FLHs might be better, but I've never heard any of them.

Sorry if I'm a bit slow, but just to verify what I think I'm hearing from the various threads on the Altec FLHs is that they're best if you can back away from them a bit?

I've got a got a big room with vaulted ceilings thats hard to fill with sound but the physical layout (not furniture etc) of the house forces you kind of close to the speakers. So I'm thinking maybe fonkens might better?

And how 'axis-critical' is it? Especially relatively near field?

They say it was designed for situations where 'directivity' is a concern... So I was just wondering?
Correct, which is just a '50s era Jensen Ultra-flex reflex loading style which in turn is just a rectangular variation of one of Thuras's examples defined in his original 1932 reflex patent, so if you want to build an original you'll have to ring thirteen pipe vents around the driver as close as physically practical to create an acoustically larger radiator at Fb.

Combination alignments (reflex loaded FLH) were created to extend a truncated horn's LF response, so when done correctly its tuning is actually quite under-damped (peaking) to ~flatten its summed response as well as protect the driver below the horn's loading.

When originally designed, amps had a high output impedance which helps in this regard, so if not re-tuned to a higher Fb when driven with a very low output impedance there's an audible step down in response that in a home or some installed venue apps can be compensated for by corner loading.

WRT vent positioning: Help/Evaluation of first sub build

In short, the sonic difference is in how the vent system affects the speaker's summed output higher up in frequency above Fb which is in turn further out of phase with the driver's front radiation.

FLHs get their gain from focusing the driver's acoustic power response over a narrower arc, so if we visualize a single complete frequency (1 WL) as a soap bubble of 'x' diameter, then as we squeeze it into an increasingly oblong shape one must be further away with increasing directivity to keep from being engulfed by it ('near-field'), so the narrower the horn's polar pattern (higher directivity factor Q) the farther one must sit to be in its far-field where the 'fullness' of its output will be felt.

IOW, like line arrays, a compression horn's response doesn't initially follow a point source's 1st order shelving response over distance, so in a typical HIFI/HT app this delay offset must be accounted for in a woofer/compression horn speaker alignment for best overall performance on vertical axis since one is normally in the horn's near-field through the XO's BW.

The 'best' HIFI/HT speaker alignment for a given app has many variables (not the least of which is personal preference/WAF) and since this subject has been expoundeded on pretty much continuously on the forums in one way or another by numerous folks I'll leave it to the 'gentle reader' to do their own research to form an opinion of their own as to what might work best for them. That, or start a new thread with full details of your room, electronics, any limitations such as listening position, speaker size, placement, WAF restrictions/whatever for folks to offer an opinion and/or some technical insight.

A compression horn's power response narrows with increasing frequency, so as a general rule-of-thumb (ROT), as one moves off axis horizontally, its useful HF BW is limited to where the throat starts becoming shrouded from view, so typically must be toe'd in and since it does, it normally sounds best overall if over-toe'd, i.e. their on axis responses cross somewhat in front of the listening position's 'sweet spot', same as with typical 'FR' driver speakers which have similar power horizontal (polar) responses.

From this we see that the longer the listening distance, the narrower the power response needs to ideally be to keep early reflections from occurring in front of it, ergo the shorter it is, the wider it must be, so the horn either must get bigger in area with a 'faster' expansion or get rid of it altogether and use an appropriate size point source driver to get the desired coverage angle and why the pioneers of audio designed huge horns for huge spaces and shrunk them down for smaller venues with either a two way separate mid/HF horn, woofer combo or HF horn/woofer co-ax being used for recording studio, broadcasting, HIFI or similar acoustically small room apps to keep it size as small as practical.

All that said, best to avoid using any parallel horn walls for high SQ HIFI/HT apps as the only way to quell its long term obnoxious (IME) eigenmodes (standing waves) also excessively damps down its output.

GM
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