3-way hi-end design thoughts

[Mario Pankov]

I recently built a two way floorstander using SS Revelator and XT25TG drivers, they sound fine, indeed i think the best Revelator based system I have listened to. But they are far away of what I want to experience when I listen to music, and it is - fast and dynamic sound, absolutely as a live performance ( which means a lot of low end bass ), sweet and very natural midrange with no phase issues neither loss of detail and crisp and loud hights that actually have presence. I will soon have a much larger living room and I can put these huge speakers ( with some floor reinforcements as they will probably weight around 300kg each )
It is obvious this 2-way is a very compromised design, the Revelator hasa sweet midrange and monstrous bass performance for its size, but It needs to be crossed low, not over 400Hz 1st order ot 1600Hz second. Both of this means a large inductor in the signal path, which I do not want. So I looked at another solution:
The bass units might be Scanspeak 25W/8545-00, two per speaker, sealed, crossed over at 80Hz 1st order. I am looking for an internal chamber design, that should actually make back end waves move in a specific direction, brake them on parts and absorb them. This will be made by a specific internal wall design and additional walls on the inside, plus a hybrid dampening of quartz sand ( on the walls ) and SAMs ( sound absorbtion materials like wool, felt and etc. ). I am also considering the 26W Revelator with the paper cone, but the higher excursion and Qts make me prefer the Classic line. Classic have a cone breakup, but it is far away of the range in which I`m going to use them and it is not nasty as the peak of the metal membranes.
The midrange is the most critical component. I am looking at a fullrange driver that has good dispersion characteristics, that is very fast and can play low, has an alnico magnet and a paper cone ( non-threated ), ideally without a whizzler cone. It should play up to 10Khz 1st order. It is intended to work OB and take on the SS bass units from the cut off freq. I am not very sure on the unit that would be best, but I am leaning towards a Lowther A45 or PM6A. Feastrex is wayyy to expensive for me. I am opened for a suggestions on this.
Tweeter would probably a Raal from the bigger ones, I need it to be as fast as possible, have a very good dispersion characteristic, sound airy and natural and to play up to 40-45Khz. I am not very sure on what to use on this position, but the Fostex supertweeters, Seas Exotic or revelators do not suit in my preference. I am not a fan of ribbons, but they look like a choice.
Any thoughts on this?

[Studio Au]

40-45KHz i dont think dogs can hear that can they?

My speaker building knowledge is rather slim, but I do enjoy learning and thoroughly enjoy the thought process. So is your design:

Bass: A single or dual woofer - sealed
Mid: Full range under 10k - Open Baffle
Tweeter: mounted on baffle or diopole (Wow just checked the RAAL, they play up to 100Khz!)

I hear really good things about the MarkAudio drivers.
Alpair 7 plays from 40Hz-23Khz, run with open baffle and a isobaric subwoofer, no need for the supertweeter?

Whats your budget?

[Mario Pankov]

Unability to hear over 20Khz doesn`t mean it is not an important range - it exists in the harmonics of most high freq. instruments. So when you listen, you cannot hear it but you feel it and when this range is missing - you notice something is not right. This is why I need it and this is why Alexander of Raal designs his drivers in such way.
I would not go for a Mark Audio driver, I mean - they are very well build and I have heard great feedback on their sound, but it is for the price range they are marketed. They use ferrite magnets, cone is metal and I need long fiber paper, basket should be cast metal or wood ( better option, but no one offers it ) and the surround should not be rubber or anything synthetic.
The midrange should be Alnico, Alnico has a few advantages over ferrite/neo magnets - there is another thread on this which explains what. The cone should be made of long fiber paper as it sounds better, something like the vintage german speakers made by Saba, Isophon and Klangfilm. They were also employing phenolic spiders instead of the regular one. I am thinking of taking a pair of vintage drivers and ask a man I know that reworks loudspeakers to upgrade them.
Regarding the budget, I cannot buy Feastrex or Rullit drivers, but I can afford something like 3k euro for the units only.

[crazyhub]

Originally Posted by Mario Pankov

...but It needs to be crossed low, not over 400Hz 1st order ot 1600Hz second. Both of this means a large inductor in the signal path, which I do not want. Large inductor ?! So I looked at another solution:
The bass units might be Scanspeak 25W/8545-00, two per speaker, sealed, crossed over at 80Hz 1st order. Huge inductor on the signal path ?! or will you go active?

[Mario Pankov]

Active might be a solution

[navin]

What comes to mind when you talk 2 woofers, a wide-range mid and a ribbon tweeter from RAAL is the Aerial Acoustics Model 20T.

I think given your understandable dislike for large inductors active is the best solution. You could even harness amplifiers that are tailored for the occasion useing a Class D or AB Solid state for the bass, Class A Solid state or UL tube for the mid and a SE triode for the tweeter. The filters could be built into the amps (LP for the bass, bandpass for the mid etc.).

BTW have you considered Troels's 1071 or DTQWT or Mr. Lampizator's P11/P10/P24?
project 10
P24_monster_speakers_raal_altec_lansing

For construction ideas take a look at the Nordic Tone from Electrocompaniet.
http://www.electrocompaniet.com/file...odel_angle.jpg

[analog_sa]

Originally Posted by Mario Pankov

I am leaning towards a Lowther A45 or PM6A.

Have you listened to the Lowthers? They invoke a serious love/hate reaction almost instantly even in frequency limited applications.

[jack daw]

one thing i can help with is noise ratio on the speaker [large hiss] by soldering the wires to the crossover and then soldering wires on to tweeter and soldering the mid range wires onto midrange driver and same with bass driver and soldering amplifier wires onto crossover gives 0 noise ratio giving higher signal transfer in better definition crystal clear sound and you can add on as many drivers as you wish without adding hiss

[doug20]

Originally Posted by Mario Pankov

Unability to hear over 20Khz doesn`t mean it is not an important range - it exists in the harmonics of most high freq. instruments. So when you listen, you cannot hear it but you feel it and when this range is missing - you notice something is not right. This is why I need it and this is why Alexander of Raal designs his drivers in such way.

You can NOT feel high frequencies

Have you done a blind test to confirm this ever? I have done blind tests with speakers using low pass filters at 15, 16, 17 and 18K Hz. I think your are being highly subjective on the opinion you just posted.

[StigErik]

Originally Posted by Mario Pankov

I am looking at a fullrange driver that has good dispersion characteristics, that is very fast and can play low, has an alnico magnet and a paper cone ( non-threated ), ideally without a whizzler cone. It should play up to 10Khz 1st order. It is intended to work OB and take on the SS bass units from the cut off freq.

You should consider no larger than 2" drivers then, if not you won't get even dispersion up to 10 kHz. Maybe an array of eight or twelwe 2"? There are some very nice ones from Peerless, although they have alu cone, not paper. No alnico either...