This tweeter would be better wouldn't it?
https://www.madisound.com/store/pro...=1087&osCsid=2528fbf7075bd0a301f9fc826e839213
https://www.madisound.com/store/pro...=1087&osCsid=2528fbf7075bd0a301f9fc826e839213
Yes, the d27, fs650 is heaps better than 1700.
You WILL have to refiddle your xo, but that was on the cards anyway.
With that tweeter you should be able to cross around 2.5k, 650 goes into 2500 with more elbow room than 1700 into 4000. Also the woofer will be more in its comfort zone.
91dB will need to be padded down, how much, depends on BSC attenuation.
Mick.
You WILL have to refiddle your xo, but that was on the cards anyway.
With that tweeter you should be able to cross around 2.5k, 650 goes into 2500 with more elbow room than 1700 into 4000. Also the woofer will be more in its comfort zone.
91dB will need to be padded down, how much, depends on BSC attenuation.
Mick.
Hold the bus!!!!
Easy tiger. First things first, you will need to find more info on that woofer of yours.
Without that your flying blind, in fact, without testing gear, a rough XO is the best you can hope for even with that woofer info! A loudspeaker is only as good as its crossover. Period.
This speaker will never sound great without a lot of time, effort, and money. You can make it sound better, but thats it. IMHO you can do better for the money it would take to get these singing.
I know this is not what you want to hear, BUT, if your looking for great sound yesterday, buy good commercial speakers, if you can wait a while longer, buy a good established kit, if your truely not in any hurry, then definately DIY.
Before you go throwing your hard earned at these speakers, please understand, thats what your in for! You would be starting a long and worth while hobby, but you won't save money for sometime! (If ever).
If you decide to go down the path of DIY, having one of these (I call it a 'Mickjigger') is handy to solder, listen, solder some more, then repeat,......for several more years. The trick is, start with a textbook XO based on what you do know about your drivers, then make small adjustments based on what you think your hearing. Results vary alarmingly! But it's great fun and you'll learn alot. Simply solder your components on in order and bridge the gaps. Components in series go DOT to DOT, parallel goes DOT to DASH. Both drivers share the negative (DASH), and they each have a line of DOTS (+).
Mounting the XO outside the box is a big advantage, to do this you will require bi-wiring capability, which will require modifying your box a little.
Hope this helps, (probably not!)
Mick.
Easy tiger. First things first, you will need to find more info on that woofer of yours.
Without that your flying blind, in fact, without testing gear, a rough XO is the best you can hope for even with that woofer info! A loudspeaker is only as good as its crossover. Period.
This speaker will never sound great without a lot of time, effort, and money. You can make it sound better, but thats it. IMHO you can do better for the money it would take to get these singing.
I know this is not what you want to hear, BUT, if your looking for great sound yesterday, buy good commercial speakers, if you can wait a while longer, buy a good established kit, if your truely not in any hurry, then definately DIY.
Before you go throwing your hard earned at these speakers, please understand, thats what your in for! You would be starting a long and worth while hobby,
but you won't save money for sometime! (If ever).If you decide to go down the path of DIY, having one of these (I call it a 'Mickjigger') is handy to solder, listen, solder some more, then repeat,......for several more years. The trick is, start with a textbook XO based on what you do know about your drivers, then make small adjustments based on what you think your hearing. Results vary alarmingly! But it's great fun and you'll learn alot. Simply solder your components on in order and bridge the gaps. Components in series go DOT to DOT, parallel goes DOT to DASH. Both drivers share the negative (DASH), and they each have a line of DOTS (+).
Mounting the XO outside the box is a big advantage, to do this you will require bi-wiring capability, which will require modifying your box a little.
Hope this helps, (probably not!)
Mick.
Attachments
No worries,
Stuffing is a good idea. Those speakers of yours look like they have a bit of poly stuffing in them. I generally use wool as well, just cause for me its easy to come by and does a great job.
Stuffing and unstuffing a speaker box with a pack of polyfill (pillow packing) will tell your ears what to expect. Same rules apply here, although to a lesser degree, as to crossovers.
More stuffing (up to a point), confuses the woofer into thinking it is in a bigger box than it really is. It is virtually impossible to get this right without modelling, but MUCH less complicated than a crossover, with this one, just trust your ears as it is a very simple mod. You will soon get the drift.
Naturally, stuffing will also help to cancel standing waves inside the speakerbox, which inturn, reflect back onto the bass driver cone, and vibrate it without the original signal saying so. You WILL hear this more as your sound quality improves, but it is there. That non-chamfered woofer cut-out has a similar effect, and gets worse with thicker materials, with very thick materials, I would imagine it would start 'loading' the woofer, again undesired.
Place your ear against the box, whilst playing music,...thats why braces are needed (bare minimum), but thicker material than 5/8 would help alot here also, don't forget to chamfer the woofer holes. It is good to see the boxes are built with a 45deg simple chamfer, this helps with edge diffraction. Edge diffraction will also make some frequncies sound as rough as emry undies.
Again you may not think so yet, but you ARE hearing all these issues, and plenty more.
So stuffing can't hurt!
Mick.
Ps. How much did you want to re-engineer these exactly.
Stuffing is a good idea. Those speakers of yours look like they have a bit of poly stuffing in them. I generally use wool as well, just cause for me its easy to come by and does a great job.
Stuffing and unstuffing a speaker box with a pack of polyfill (pillow packing) will tell your ears what to expect. Same rules apply here, although to a lesser degree, as to crossovers.
More stuffing (up to a point), confuses the woofer into thinking it is in a bigger box than it really is. It is virtually impossible to get this right without modelling, but MUCH less complicated than a crossover, with this one, just trust your ears as it is a very simple mod. You will soon get the drift.
Naturally, stuffing will also help to cancel standing waves inside the speakerbox, which inturn, reflect back onto the bass driver cone, and vibrate it without the original signal saying so. You WILL hear this more as your sound quality improves, but it is there. That non-chamfered woofer cut-out has a similar effect, and gets worse with thicker materials, with very thick materials, I would imagine it would start 'loading' the woofer, again undesired.
Place your ear against the box, whilst playing music,...thats why braces are needed (bare minimum), but thicker material than 5/8 would help alot here also, don't forget to chamfer the woofer holes. It is good to see the boxes are built with a 45deg simple chamfer, this helps with edge diffraction. Edge diffraction will also make some frequncies sound as rough as emry undies.
Again you may not think so yet, but you ARE hearing all these issues, and plenty more.
So stuffing can't hurt!
Mick.
Ps. How much did you want to re-engineer these exactly.
Hi,
You say the tweeters are atrocious ? in what way ? they do not look like
they should be awful, perhaps they are balanced wrong. There is nothing
wrong with the Vifa tweeter, the high Fs is not an issue (its well damped),
actually its a feature allowing a simpler crossover.
Rejig the crossover for more BSC ?, pad the tweeters down in level to match
and hope you get a decent c/o point shape / phase tracking. Hit and miss
without an FR curve for the bass / mid, new tweeters unlikely to help.
Sreten.
You say the tweeters are atrocious ? in what way ? they do not look like
they should be awful, perhaps they are balanced wrong. There is nothing
wrong with the Vifa tweeter, the high Fs is not an issue (its well damped),
actually its a feature allowing a simpler crossover.
Rejig the crossover for more BSC ?, pad the tweeters down in level to match
and hope you get a decent c/o point shape / phase tracking. Hit and miss
without an FR curve for the bass / mid, new tweeters unlikely to help.
Sreten.
You simply cannot re-jigger the crossover without knowing anything about the woofer, it absolutely cannot happen, keep in mind that replacing the tweeter does mean re-jigging the crossover also. This is by far the most difficult aspect.
Bracing, stuffing and all that, is a piece of p!ss, as I said it is the crossover that will ultimately determine, a hit or a miss, even with computer modelling this is not a guaranteed science. You've been warned.
If you can find info on that woofer, I can point you in the best under the circumstances direction from there.
Meanwhile.
Speaker Box Enclosure Designer / Calculator
Difraction Loss / Baffle Step Compensation (BSC) Circuit Calculator for Speakers
Mick.
Cheers sreten.
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In that box, that woofer models the classic commercial response curve, big (4db) bump centred around 80-100hz, but bugger all extension, so it is probably that one.
Its an attempt at making the speaker sound bigger than it is. It also means, you shouldn't need a bsc circuit.
What you can't model, is what the frequency response is doing around XO. So still hit and miss.
I would suggest that if your gonna tinker with these things, keep the original XO perfectly intact, and don't throw your tweeters away, that way, at least you can go back to the original.
Now you seem to have the specs of the 2 drivers you have and the 1 you propose, using the links I gave you, knock yourself out!
Good Luck!
Mick.
Its an attempt at making the speaker sound bigger than it is. It also means, you shouldn't need a bsc circuit.
What you can't model, is what the frequency response is doing around XO. So still hit and miss.
I would suggest that if your gonna tinker with these things, keep the original XO perfectly intact, and don't throw your tweeters away, that way, at least you can go back to the original.
Now you seem to have the specs of the 2 drivers you have and the 1 you propose, using the links I gave you, knock yourself out!
Good Luck!
Mick.
G'day Ted,
Hope all is well 'up' there mate. Jo and I were in Geelong a couple of weeks ago, for a footy related MRI, Nothing too nasty, and I'm recovering very well, back on my feet and drivin' Jo mad! (Ker-rankin'!!)
I agree, 'Bang for your buck', is always the first, best mod. Even recessing the tweeter wouldn't be expensive or difficult, just cut a hole through the vinyl veneer first using the tweeter as a template. Then just 'route it out!'. Just a matter of can you beg borrow or steal a router?
Just another cheap idea.
Mick.
Hope all is well 'up' there mate. Jo and I were in Geelong a couple of weeks ago, for a footy related MRI, Nothing too nasty, and I'm recovering very well, back on my feet and drivin' Jo mad! (Ker-rankin'!!)
I agree, 'Bang for your buck', is always the first, best mod. Even recessing the tweeter wouldn't be expensive or difficult, just cut a hole through the vinyl veneer first using the tweeter as a template. Then just 'route it out!'. Just a matter of can you beg borrow or steal a router?
Just another cheap idea.
Mick.
Thanks for all the support so far.
There was a guy, Ed Frias, who used to take these crossovers, mod them and send them back to you. Most everyone said it was a good thing.
Based on the drivers, in your own experience with crossover fiddlin', what would be the change he would have made so simply to tame the tweeter?
There was a guy, Ed Frias, who used to take these crossovers, mod them and send them back to you. Most everyone said it was a good thing.
Based on the drivers, in your own experience with crossover fiddlin', what would be the change he would have made so simply to tame the tweeter?
Hi,
he'd buy an 8 ohm L-pad : L-Pad 15W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm | Parts-Express.com
wire it correctly and adjust the tweeter level to taste. Then measure the L-pads
two resistances and buy the 4 resistors needed to pad the two tweeters.
(A pad is a resistor in series with, and then another in parallel with, a driver.)
If it does not work you've got serious problems, i.e. something is very wrong.
/Sreten.
he'd buy an 8 ohm L-pad : L-Pad 15W Mono 1" Shaft 8 Ohm | Parts-Express.com
wire it correctly and adjust the tweeter level to taste. Then measure the L-pads
two resistances and buy the 4 resistors needed to pad the two tweeters.
(A pad is a resistor in series with, and then another in parallel with, a driver.)
If it does not work you've got serious problems, i.e. something is very wrong.
/Sreten.
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