Hey, all -
Great site. After lurking a little (after discovering you all from a reference at head-fi.org) I am ready to actually ask a question!
I am leaning toward building my first set of decent speakers to be driven by my Jolida 102b integrated tube amp. The Fostex 206e's seem like a pretty good sweet spot for the single-driver design. I do not think I am ready to start designing XO's and all.
Has anyone here actually built single-driver enclosures using a fostex driver? 206/206e's especially, but would appreciate any insight into the process with this family of speakers.
If so, what did you build? Ported? Horns? Bought/scrounged design? Self-designed?
Did the sound meet your expectation? What advice would you give? What would you do differently?
Thanks for any info, and thanks for such a great info source!
GnD
Great site. After lurking a little (after discovering you all from a reference at head-fi.org) I am ready to actually ask a question!
I am leaning toward building my first set of decent speakers to be driven by my Jolida 102b integrated tube amp. The Fostex 206e's seem like a pretty good sweet spot for the single-driver design. I do not think I am ready to start designing XO's and all.
Has anyone here actually built single-driver enclosures using a fostex driver? 206/206e's especially, but would appreciate any insight into the process with this family of speakers.
If so, what did you build? Ported? Horns? Bought/scrounged design? Self-designed?
Did the sound meet your expectation? What advice would you give? What would you do differently?
Thanks for any info, and thanks for such a great info source!
GnD
Depending on how you pick your drivers and how much you want to spend, you could easily make a two-way that only uses the simplest of crossovers on the tweeter. For example, Morel woofers have a very steep top-end roll-off that can be matched with a properly crossed over tweeter, with the woofer running full. This tends to work with drivers with large voice coils (Morel, Dynaudio)
You might want to check out the full range driver forum
Single drive forum
I've not used the Fostex drivers but my first project was a single driver using the Jordan JX92S. And for the same reason, simplicity and mo crossover in the critical range. I love them.
Single drive forum
I've not used the Fostex drivers but my first project was a single driver using the Jordan JX92S. And for the same reason, simplicity and mo crossover in the critical range. I love them.
Hello.
I'm just one of so many Fostex users in Japan. I'm glad to welcome a new comer to Fostex speakers.
I'm sorry I can't meet your especial demand, but I have FE-108ES in my self-designed enclosure of backloaded-horn. So the models you referred and mine are designed for.
With suitable enclosure, FE series brings out brilliant and persuasive sound. I'm satisfied with it.
If you come to be so motivated that you can't help to build, still get cool and make careful plan. In fact, my current one is 2nd built. The first was a bummer and I spoiled pretty much money.
Backloaded enclosure has so many difficulties with designing.
For the first challenge, I recommend you to build the kit of Fostex.
Good luck in your project!
I'm just one of so many Fostex users in Japan. I'm glad to welcome a new comer to Fostex speakers.
I'm sorry I can't meet your especial demand, but I have FE-108ES in my self-designed enclosure of backloaded-horn. So the models you referred and mine are designed for.
With suitable enclosure, FE series brings out brilliant and persuasive sound. I'm satisfied with it.
If you come to be so motivated that you can't help to build, still get cool and make careful plan. In fact, my current one is 2nd built. The first was a bummer and I spoiled pretty much money.
Backloaded enclosure has so many difficulties with designing.
For the first challenge, I recommend you to build the kit of Fostex.
Good luck in your project!
Thanks, Mr. Yayakoshi
I am (currently) leaning toward a Voight Horn Pipe as shown here:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~nocturne/VOIGT.html
It seems like a relatively simple model to build, compared to some of the rear-folded-horn designs. Do you know of anyone who has built this design? I would probably use a 206e as the driver.
Deep base extension is not that important to me. I want good soundstaging, high efficiency and speed on the transients. I would be driving them with a Jolida 20w push/pull tube integrated amp.
Thanks much, and thanks to the others for the useful links!
GnD
I am (currently) leaning toward a Voight Horn Pipe as shown here:
http://www.users.qwest.net/~nocturne/VOIGT.html
It seems like a relatively simple model to build, compared to some of the rear-folded-horn designs. Do you know of anyone who has built this design? I would probably use a 206e as the driver.
Deep base extension is not that important to me. I want good soundstaging, high efficiency and speed on the transients. I would be driving them with a Jolida 20w push/pull tube integrated amp.
Thanks much, and thanks to the others for the useful links!
GnD
Hi.
Maybe you already know that backhorn design is surely one of the best design for the fe-206, but with most considerable care for damping just behind the driver to cutoff highs and mids freq, and the mouth or the end of the maze to prevent from a cavern type of sound (leave a sidepanel unglued for further works on damping).
Don't expect very deep lows however.
I suggest the D-37 Nagaoka design with at least 1 inch MDF panels.
Lucks
Maybe you already know that backhorn design is surely one of the best design for the fe-206, but with most considerable care for damping just behind the driver to cutoff highs and mids freq, and the mouth or the end of the maze to prevent from a cavern type of sound (leave a sidepanel unglued for further works on damping).
Don't expect very deep lows however.
I suggest the D-37 Nagaoka design with at least 1 inch MDF panels.
Lucks
Before telling you what you want, I?fm a little anxious about the way you call Voight?fs QWT as Voight Horn Pipe.
Voight Pipe is not really a horn because it mainly effects as Quarter Wave Tube.
Blown pipe sounds by resonance, like as organ. QWT speakers utilize this effect to improve the range and response of low.
In the case of pipe, of which one side is closed, the wavelength of resonant sound is 4 times longer than the length of pipe. To put it the way around, you need 1/4 length of pipe toward the wavelength of sound you want. That?fs why this pipe is called Quarter Wave Tube.
While, horns are to simply expand the acoustic vibration. So, the inside space of horns begins with narrow section, then gradually expands, and ends up with large surface.
Of course, Voight Pipe has this figure. But its effect as horn is very weak. Why?
Long pipes have airflow resistance that is caused by its length and narrowness. In addition, the narrower beginning section of horns strengthens the surface tension of air. These resistant factors make it not easy to drive something long as horn. To make easy, you need something to reduce these resistances.
In fact, it?fs practically impossible to reduce airflow resistance of long pipe. Because you need pretty much length by all means, and you can?ft make the pipe so wide that it will be a simple box rather than a pipe.
But as for the intensive surface tension of air, in the beginning section of horns, you can temper it by attaching something affect to broaden the surface.
Now, you can understand why trumpet needs mouthpiece. Same applies to backloaded-horn. Instead of mouthpiece, it has a room (We call it ?gair-room?h) ahead of horn. And what?fs more, this room has another effect that gathers air pressure and blows out strong enough to beat the surface tension.
I?fm sorry I explained too much about technicals, but this is the reason I insist Voight Pipe is not really a horn.
Now, about your plan of Voight Pipe. Unfortunately, I don?ft know anyone who are using Voight Pipe, but the main speaker of Mr. Nagaoka was (He passed away last year.) QWT driven by FE-208ES‡U.
This speaker was nicknamed ?gNessie?h because of its height. (2.7m, and total length of the pipe is 3.6m because it has a fold.) It was said that the bass range was extended to around 10Hz, but its volume wasn?ft enough so that he added sub woofer using 2 of FW-227 each channel, powered by another amplifier.
The first driver of his Nessie was FE-208sigma and the frequency response was totally flat to the low-end, setting them in the corners of his listening room. But he was not satisfied with sigma because he didn?ft feel it aggressive sound he wanted, although it was much enough when he used sigma in backloaded-horns.
He concluded it?fs the tougher load, compared with backloaded-horns, that weakens the aggressiveness of sigma in his QWT. But the stronger driver he specially ordered to Fostex (That?fs the model later known as FE-208S) came with lounder response in mid and high, so that he was annoyed by the want of low.
Therefore, he got into the bind of demands for aggressiveness and flat response. Considering his example, if you use FE-206 or 208 in Voight Pipe, you may face the same difficulty.
But some amateurs reported their Nessie with FE-208S achieved enough volume of bass, without sub, only by corner setting. These cases have one thing in common. Their listening rooms are not so large; walls (includes floor and ceiling) are made of concrete and have very good insulation of sound.
By the way, classeA cited D-37, but it was designed for FE168SS. (Currently it?fs FE168ES‡U) I guess it?fs just a typo of D-57.
For 20cm series, Nagaoka built D-55 for FE208S, D-57 for FE208sigma or 208S, D-58 for FE208SS. They have flat low response deep into 30-40Hz, but you need tremendous degree of resolution and struggle to build them up. I?fm giving up for them.
Another fan of Nagaoka presents the schematic of D-55 here.
http://www2.nkansai.ne.jp/hotel/nakanou/D-55.htm
Parts 35 & 36 are not wooden board. They are sheets of urethane foam. The thickness of the wood board is 21mm, and that of urethane is 60mm. The long formula means the order of setup.
Thank you for reading this long reply.
Voight Pipe is not really a horn because it mainly effects as Quarter Wave Tube.
Blown pipe sounds by resonance, like as organ. QWT speakers utilize this effect to improve the range and response of low.
In the case of pipe, of which one side is closed, the wavelength of resonant sound is 4 times longer than the length of pipe. To put it the way around, you need 1/4 length of pipe toward the wavelength of sound you want. That?fs why this pipe is called Quarter Wave Tube.
While, horns are to simply expand the acoustic vibration. So, the inside space of horns begins with narrow section, then gradually expands, and ends up with large surface.
Of course, Voight Pipe has this figure. But its effect as horn is very weak. Why?
Long pipes have airflow resistance that is caused by its length and narrowness. In addition, the narrower beginning section of horns strengthens the surface tension of air. These resistant factors make it not easy to drive something long as horn. To make easy, you need something to reduce these resistances.
In fact, it?fs practically impossible to reduce airflow resistance of long pipe. Because you need pretty much length by all means, and you can?ft make the pipe so wide that it will be a simple box rather than a pipe.
But as for the intensive surface tension of air, in the beginning section of horns, you can temper it by attaching something affect to broaden the surface.
Now, you can understand why trumpet needs mouthpiece. Same applies to backloaded-horn. Instead of mouthpiece, it has a room (We call it ?gair-room?h) ahead of horn. And what?fs more, this room has another effect that gathers air pressure and blows out strong enough to beat the surface tension.
I?fm sorry I explained too much about technicals, but this is the reason I insist Voight Pipe is not really a horn.
Now, about your plan of Voight Pipe. Unfortunately, I don?ft know anyone who are using Voight Pipe, but the main speaker of Mr. Nagaoka was (He passed away last year.) QWT driven by FE-208ES‡U.
This speaker was nicknamed ?gNessie?h because of its height. (2.7m, and total length of the pipe is 3.6m because it has a fold.) It was said that the bass range was extended to around 10Hz, but its volume wasn?ft enough so that he added sub woofer using 2 of FW-227 each channel, powered by another amplifier.
The first driver of his Nessie was FE-208sigma and the frequency response was totally flat to the low-end, setting them in the corners of his listening room. But he was not satisfied with sigma because he didn?ft feel it aggressive sound he wanted, although it was much enough when he used sigma in backloaded-horns.
He concluded it?fs the tougher load, compared with backloaded-horns, that weakens the aggressiveness of sigma in his QWT. But the stronger driver he specially ordered to Fostex (That?fs the model later known as FE-208S) came with lounder response in mid and high, so that he was annoyed by the want of low.
Therefore, he got into the bind of demands for aggressiveness and flat response. Considering his example, if you use FE-206 or 208 in Voight Pipe, you may face the same difficulty.
But some amateurs reported their Nessie with FE-208S achieved enough volume of bass, without sub, only by corner setting. These cases have one thing in common. Their listening rooms are not so large; walls (includes floor and ceiling) are made of concrete and have very good insulation of sound.
By the way, classeA cited D-37, but it was designed for FE168SS. (Currently it?fs FE168ES‡U) I guess it?fs just a typo of D-57.
For 20cm series, Nagaoka built D-55 for FE208S, D-57 for FE208sigma or 208S, D-58 for FE208SS. They have flat low response deep into 30-40Hz, but you need tremendous degree of resolution and struggle to build them up. I?fm giving up for them.
Another fan of Nagaoka presents the schematic of D-55 here.
http://www2.nkansai.ne.jp/hotel/nakanou/D-55.htm
Parts 35 & 36 are not wooden board. They are sheets of urethane foam. The thickness of the wood board is 21mm, and that of urethane is 60mm. The long formula means the order of setup.
Thank you for reading this long reply.
Mr. Yayakoshi is right : I meant d-57 design instead of d-37.
I built a d-37 design working with 168 sigmas last year, against most recommendations. Surprisingly, it's a real success to my ears, and I'm very happy with them.
Mr. Yayakoshi is right also when he says that such horn designs are a bit difficult to build and I would add to tune correctly. But the results are great too.
Thanks
I built a d-37 design working with 168 sigmas last year, against most recommendations. Surprisingly, it's a real success to my ears, and I'm very happy with them.
Mr. Yayakoshi is right also when he says that such horn designs are a bit difficult to build and I would add to tune correctly. But the results are great too.
Thanks
Odio Yayakoshi said:
Odio,
Can you tell us more about your horn. The FE108ES is a driver i would really like to try. Plans, pictures?
On Voigt pipes. They are definitely not horns. The 206E has probably too low a Q to be used in one as well. You might be able to get adequate performance out of a Mass-Loaded TL thou. Martin King has a good article on the ML-TLs he built for Lowthers. http://www.quarter-wave.com/
dave
Sorry for getting in late.
1. Avoid the Lowther Club of Norway "Voigt" pipe, or any other TQWT that comes to a zero area point like SARS. You will never be able to eliminate the comb filtering. Designs with a small end area of at least Sd will be much smoother and go much deeper for the same length.
2. The FE206E is designed for true horns. the Qts is much too low to use in a TQWT. Ideally, you want Qts=0.4-0.5. If you are using a high-Z SET amp, you might get away with it, but you will probably need a series filter to flatten out the FR. The FE207E has musch higher Qts and should work fine in a TQWT. There is some discussion of the 206 being more detailed than the 207 due to the larger magnet, but is the detail of the 206 so much better that it is worth throwing away several dB's of sensitivity? Your call.
Bob
1. Avoid the Lowther Club of Norway "Voigt" pipe, or any other TQWT that comes to a zero area point like SARS. You will never be able to eliminate the comb filtering. Designs with a small end area of at least Sd will be much smoother and go much deeper for the same length.
2. The FE206E is designed for true horns. the Qts is much too low to use in a TQWT. Ideally, you want Qts=0.4-0.5. If you are using a high-Z SET amp, you might get away with it, but you will probably need a series filter to flatten out the FR. The FE207E has musch higher Qts and should work fine in a TQWT. There is some discussion of the 206 being more detailed than the 207 due to the larger magnet, but is the detail of the 206 so much better that it is worth throwing away several dB's of sensitivity? Your call.
Bob
Wow, guys-
Thanks for the many and detailed posts. I am reading them over and over again, until I finally understand them!
My driver and design are not set in stone, so the advice on the 207's vs 206's is timely.
My main parameters are (in order, roughly)
1) Reasonably easy to build - these will be my first DIY'd speakers and the best design in the world is useless if I can't pull it off mechanically, and with a decent WAF to boot!
2) Detailed, fast, well-imaged sound. Bass extension is not that important - 80's rolloff would be fine if necessary I suppose.
3) Efficient enough to be well-driven by a ~20 watt Jolida tube amp (AB)
To that end, I was leaning toward the Fostex/Voight Pipe, but it sounds like there may be other designs and/or drivers that merit serious consideration.
Again, thanks much for the quality discussion. I am sure that I am not the only one who is/will benefit from this thread!
GnD
Thanks for the many and detailed posts. I am reading them over and over again, until I finally understand them!
My driver and design are not set in stone, so the advice on the 207's vs 206's is timely.
My main parameters are (in order, roughly)
1) Reasonably easy to build - these will be my first DIY'd speakers and the best design in the world is useless if I can't pull it off mechanically, and with a decent WAF to boot!
2) Detailed, fast, well-imaged sound. Bass extension is not that important - 80's rolloff would be fine if necessary I suppose.
3) Efficient enough to be well-driven by a ~20 watt Jolida tube amp (AB)
To that end, I was leaning toward the Fostex/Voight Pipe, but it sounds like there may be other designs and/or drivers that merit serious consideration.
Again, thanks much for the quality discussion. I am sure that I am not the only one who is/will benefit from this thread!
GnD
I�fm sorry there were many garbage characters in my previous reply. But I�fm relieved you all seem to be able to understand what I wrote. I appreciate it.
I got a request from the moderator, but this thread is originated by Grahamn Dodder, seeking tips for His plan. So, it�fs not very good to disclose mine too much. I�fm not sure if my plan makes help to him.
So, I show the least things about my horn.
Driver: FE-108ES
L (length of horn): 240cm
So (specifies of horn�fs entrance): computationally 42scm, practically 49scm
S (specifies of horn�fs exit): as above 360scm, 371scm
V (volume of air-room) 2.4L
If I design for FE-206E, they will be
L: 250cm
So: 180scm
S: 1000scm
V: 10L
If Grahamn really came to think of horn plan, I�fll give some more.
I got a request from the moderator, but this thread is originated by Grahamn Dodder, seeking tips for His plan. So, it�fs not very good to disclose mine too much. I�fm not sure if my plan makes help to him.
So, I show the least things about my horn.
Driver: FE-108ES
L (length of horn): 240cm
So (specifies of horn�fs entrance): computationally 42scm, practically 49scm
S (specifies of horn�fs exit): as above 360scm, 371scm
V (volume of air-room) 2.4L
If I design for FE-206E, they will be
L: 250cm
So: 180scm
S: 1000scm
V: 10L
If Grahamn really came to think of horn plan, I�fll give some more.
Attachments
Thanks, Odio-
The more I look at it now, the more complex it becomes. I suppose that is part of the fun.
I am not married to the idea of a horn, but whatever design best meets the criteria above (relatively easy build, fast, good image, efficient, etc.)
I like the idea of a single driver for both ease of build and the idea that all sound comes from a single source on the enclosure (excluding, for a moment, the port or horn, of course).
I have been following link after link seeing design project after design project. Many look very enticing. It is a shame I can't audition them over the computer!
I am still listed as new, so my responses take a while to show up on the board, BTW.
I got the idea of a Fostex 206E from the DIY section of the TNT-audio site, which I also found very valuable. But it seems that my driver choice will vary based on the size and design of the enclosure.
Maybe I should consider building something relatively small and simple for a first build, to keep the materials/driver costs down in case of total failure, and to give me rationale for building something bigger and better for a second project...
I have a good source for multiple varieties of hardwood close by. Is it necessary to build (structurally) out of MDF or plywood, or is that just a choice based on economics for most? If I build small, I could reasonably afford cherry wood, for instance.
GnD
The more I look at it now, the more complex it becomes. I suppose that is part of the fun.
I am not married to the idea of a horn, but whatever design best meets the criteria above (relatively easy build, fast, good image, efficient, etc.)
I like the idea of a single driver for both ease of build and the idea that all sound comes from a single source on the enclosure (excluding, for a moment, the port or horn, of course).
I have been following link after link seeing design project after design project. Many look very enticing. It is a shame I can't audition them over the computer!
I am still listed as new, so my responses take a while to show up on the board, BTW.
I got the idea of a Fostex 206E from the DIY section of the TNT-audio site, which I also found very valuable. But it seems that my driver choice will vary based on the size and design of the enclosure.
Maybe I should consider building something relatively small and simple for a first build, to keep the materials/driver costs down in case of total failure, and to give me rationale for building something bigger and better for a second project...
I have a good source for multiple varieties of hardwood close by. Is it necessary to build (structurally) out of MDF or plywood, or is that just a choice based on economics for most? If I build small, I could reasonably afford cherry wood, for instance.
GnD
GrahamnDodder said:
There are some pretty good FE103 projects out there. The BD-Pipe and the Buschorn II (with detail tweaks) are 2 i have heard (with RS 40-1197s & FE103As) and both are quite good.
It is usually not a good idea to build out of solid... plywood is better, i'm moving away from MDF except in the case of boxes that have to be inexpensive (cheaper to buy & cheaper to finish).
dave
Fostex
I got some expirence with Fostex.Sound very nice ,less detailed and real but I think smoother than Lowthers.To get real bass they needs back loaded horns,unless one lives in very small room.This way BS might work well.But,to be honest: To my ears they just all need tweeters.Period.They just don't do highest highs.For Fostex 204 or 206 FT17H from Fostex above some 15-18Khz might work fine.Suppose more expensive ones from Fostex might work even better.Single cap. (6db/oct) should work good.
Bartek
I got some expirence with Fostex.Sound very nice ,less detailed and real but I think smoother than Lowthers.To get real bass they needs back loaded horns,unless one lives in very small room.This way BS might work well.But,to be honest: To my ears they just all need tweeters.Period.They just don't do highest highs.For Fostex 204 or 206 FT17H from Fostex above some 15-18Khz might work fine.Suppose more expensive ones from Fostex might work even better.Single cap. (6db/oct) should work good.
Bartek
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