what is the power rating for this DIY speaker?

[budget minded]

i have the parts to build 4 x "HQ" satellite speakers for my SQ DJ rig. i will be using an acoustic suspension design and each satellite will have it's own 12" subwoofer with the plan of spacing everything in a 20 foot square area outdoors or as space permits indoors. the mains, initially at least, will be run in "small mode" (75Hz highpass i believe) with it's own 100w amp.

i'm wondering what the maximum power i can feed each speaker is when i upgrade is. i'm afraid that because i've wired the woofers series, they'll only be able to handle the same 80w continuous that one will as each one has to pass the full current vs a parallel circuit. i can't find any "speaker power handling calculators" online despite trying several keyword variations.

these are the drivers & crossovers i'll be using for each speaker:

Dayton DC25T-8
1" Titanium Dome Tweeter
Power handling: 50 watts RMS/75 watts max
Impedance: 8 ohms
Frequency response: 3,000-20,000 Hz
Fs: 1,659 Hz
SPL: 93 dB 1W/1m

Dayton X02W-3.5k crossover
3,500Hz @ 12dB
300w rated

Goldwood GW-S650/4
2 x 6 1/2" woofers each speaker
Power handling: 80 watts RMS/170 watts max
Impedance: 4 ohms (wired in series for an 8 ohm load)
Frequency range: 35-5,000 Hz
SPL: 90 dB (93dB in series?)

Axiom Algonquin outdoor speakers use the same tweeter crossed over at a lower 2,200Hz frequency and are rated at 175 watts, so i'm HOPING that i can get a solid 160w minimum rating out of my design (or 300w with 2 speakers each in parallel per channel when i upgrade amps) as the tweeter shouldn't be the weakest link. i'm hoping that i can push a solid 150w through each speaker or even 200w as the tweeter will absorb some of the power as well as the acoustic suspension offering some impedance. i know acoustic suspension offers better power handling & i'm guessing it's the impedance spike at low frequencies & mechanical resistance. i've never seen these particular issues discussed in any audio magazine etc.

any help understanding these aspects of power handling is appreciated.

one other issue i'm fuzzy on, i know you get 3dB more output every time you double your speakers in parallel at least, but when you do that, do you also double your power handling, or does that remain the same? these should be easy questions for everyone here who understands circuits better than i do.

many thanks in advance to anyone who can clear this up USING PLAIN ENGLISH. you'll lose me the second you start talking about log this and cosine that.

[picowallspeaker]

IME the tweeter is the weakest link ,or at least the common dome types (also the ribbons
used to be delicate ). For power handling you just have to look at magnet's size (ok,ok :
AlNiCo ones are littler for a given efficiency...) :That is the "spring" that has to be pushed.
The fact is that (transistors) amplifiers don't like low impedances. Higher distortion will come out of the speakers ,and the firsts to go are usually the tweeters .
You're right about paralleling & serializing&power handling . I would parallel ,not serialize .Speakers are not just "resistors" ; so it is true that two speakers in the same chamber may cause interference with each other.Everything must be carefully taken in consideration :also a generic crossover may not work properly well on different drivers;well..it must not work at all ,if HQ is what you're looking for !

[opc]

Hi budget minded:

I'm going to stick to the questions you asked since the above answer seems a little confusing and not exactly precise.

1. If you wire the drivers in series, you will still get twice the power handling, just as you would if you wired them in parallel. Here's why:

Power = Voltage x Current

In Series = same current, but half the voltage, therefore, half the power applied to each driver.

In Parallel = same voltage, but half the current, therefore, half the power applied to each driver.

With the drivers crossed over using a HP at 75Hz, you shouldn't have any problems with power handling using a 100W amplifier. You're also crossing the tweeters in relatively high, so that should make life easier on them as well.

If I were you, I wouldn't focus so much on power handling. It's generally misleading, and completely irrelevant. You need to look at the larger picture, and the realities of how the drivers will actually be used. If your target is a certain SPL level, then figure out what that is, and work backwards from there selecting drivers with the proper efficiency to work within the power limitations you have. Also keep in mind that music has a crest factor between 10 and 20dB, so if your maximum power is 100W and you don't intend to run your amplifier above clipping, then your speakers won't see anywhere near that 100w of power on a continuous basis.

What I'm trying to say is that you shouldn't waste your time worrying about power handling numbers, and you certainly shouldn't be making driver decisions based on them. There are far more important factors at play, and as picowallspeaker said, if SQ is your primary goal, then you're barking up the wrong tree.

Cheers,
Owen

[PeteMcK]

using poor quality 'hi-fi' drivers for a DJ rig is courting disaster; be a bit less budget minded and buy high efficiency pro-audio drivers that can handle high SPL.

[budget minded]

i DESPISE the sound of ported speakers with every fiber of my being. the BEST bass i'd ever heard (until listening to lightning fast maggies) was a buddy's 4 1/2" infinity minimonitors on a 45wpc denon in the 80s. the sound INSTANTLY grabbed me. i got so excited. THAT was the day i got into hifi. i'd already been visiting 4 local stereo stores within a block of each other with everything from NAD & boston acoustics up to macintosh & klipsch, but it wasn't until i heard those little puppies thumping so quick & clear (and heard their awesomely tight focused imaging) that i really got into music. that's when i learned "less is more" & big expensive speakers are a joke and actually worse sounding. until then, i'd never heard quick & undistorted bass and after reading some high fidelity (remember them?) & audio (or them?) magazines learned that it was the resonant sound of ported woofers & the sluggish speed of larger woofers that had always annoyed me so much before and why those tiny little $120 boxes with their grey styrofoam tweeters kicked multi-thousand dollar butt in every way except scale.

since that day, i'm a total "all ported speakers must die" convert. i spit on them. they're nothing but distortion boxes to me no matter what 1,000 apologists who'll deny the FACTS, even when they come from speaker manufacturers themselves say. i know what me ears tell me, and i know what common sense tells me. i also knew that i was correct in using the "blowing across the opening of a bottle to distort the sound of your breath" analogy long before i'd seen someone else use the very same one in a ported vs sealed pros & cons list. i knew that besides being RESONANT cavities (they're even TUNED for resonance... hello!) that by their nature add delay & overhang to the original impulse. my ears can hear that annoying blur/slop. there's no way in heck i'll pollute my sound system with ports EVER! it's not open to debate. all ported speakers should be burned to the ground. if someone wants crappy EVIL resonant boom, let them throw a rock and hit any other DJ. i just don't get how EVERYONE doesn't hear them for the hideous abominations of sound they are. i knew i didn't like them long before i knew why.

i'm FIGHTING the forces of evil here. this is a personal mission/vendetta LOL i'm not doing this to make money. i'm doing this totally out of a love for REAL music & good sound. i know everyone i've handed CDs out to loves the funkier sound of old school hip-hop & disco etc. i'm trying to create a demand for "something different" because everything about going into a nightclub here from the sound systems to the music played just whizzes me off and offends my ears. one of my favorite songs ever is "jam on it" by newcleus. there's one DJ here who will throw 1 oldie in between the gangsta crap, but when he played it, i couldn't even recognize it on the lousy (but very loud) PA system until the vocals came in. that's a pretty strong argument against ports & horns in my book. the speakers were ceiling mounted too, so it's not like they were being blocked by the crowd as is common.

i prefer the sound of slightly less loud music with much more clarity which totally makes up for the SPL anyways. i don't care to fry what's left of my aging hearing with 120dB either. i don't even like the fact that i've COMPROMISED to using 6 1/2" midbass (instead of 4 1/2") and 12" (instead of 8") because i can't afford 4X the drivers to move the same amount of air, but would upgrade to that if i find i get gigs. really, i'd like an 8X maggies system where each panel has 4X 8" subs & plenty of class D power, but that's not realistic considering i don't know if sheep will only hire a DJ who'll only play the same crap as every other clone or one who refuses to play anything less than ubpeat & funky.

my TOTAL commitment to DJing is great sond in every way... not compromising with hideous booming bass and especially not playing that soulless techno crap or wannabe gangsta crap every other DJ does. my thing is "kinder, gentler & FUNKIER" & my motto is "the easy on your ears DJ". (quality of quantity) though with just 100wpc and 5 1/4" 86dB mission 2 ways with no sub at all, i found i could get some pretty decent SPL. upping the efficiency 7dB with 2x & larger woofers should move more air as well as adding another 3dB through doubling the speakers & spacing them for better coverage. i HAVE put a lot of thought into this system eg. mounting the mains over everyone's heads to prevent the standard muffled sound of blocked trweeters. (don't get me started on the evil screechy sound of horns)

the reason i want to know my speakers' power ratings is because i don't want to risk blowing my irreplaceable & much loved panasonic (they don't do class D anymore) and i'd like to squeeze every last dB i can as you're well aware my gear is limited in output.

i want to get the correct output stereo amp so i can use my mains at their true capability. i believe the output of a panasonic in 4 speaker mode is closer to 70wpc than 100. i just wanted to know if i should get a 200wpc into 4 ohm amp or 300, 400 even 500?

i've been to college house parties where everyone had fun dancing to just a pair of JBL minimonitors on the DJs table, so i just don't buy that "you HAVE TO kowtow before the high efficiency god" garbage. i'm offering an alternative here. i could not, in good faith, do shows with crappier sound than i'd listen to myself. it's a disservice to my clientele.

most of the excitement is in the bass anyways and with 4 x 12" subs (@ 94dB) and a 500w plate amp, i don't think anyone will be complaining ESPECIALLY when they feel the tight bass smack them like a quick punch vs a sloppy giant wet sponge. percussion sounds terrible on ports.

maybe i should have posted this in a *sigh* autosound forum where at least a FEW people recognize the total superiority of acoustic suspension & smaller drivers in everything except in "duh, me like big loud noise even if it's pure distortion" systems where owners aren't bothered by clipping distortion or bolts buzzing either. *shudder*

when i start making money, i'll start adding more drivers for more SPL. the ONLY correct way to do it as far as i'm concerned.

ports are enemies that must be destroyed! too many idiotic "duh me like it loud" customers who buy speakers based on whatever's loudest & not clearest ruined boston acoustics & infinity (and a few other brands i'm sure) forever. me? i LOVE NHT!

so, does anyone have a suggestion for what sized amp i should be looking for to get the most out of these mains?

[picowallspeaker]

You're great !
God is a dj .....We keep spinning and spinning ...
200,330,550 watts will be allright .

[budget minded]

i don't know that everyone would think i'm great. i know i get 10x more flack from hip-hop hating rednecks out here when riding with a bike system than i did for being white "in da hood" where even REAL gangstas don't listen to the crap local posers (who'd get their hiney smacked down in a minute in a real hood) here do.

i know local DJs hate me as much as i hate them as one made sure to nix my application at a nightclub because i wanted to bring some much needed funk to the scene. i even offered to do a gig for free just to show that despite what they think, people WILL dance to atomic dog, funkytown, give it away, & my sharona etc. if given the chance.

i'm just trying to do my own thing. whoever doesn't like it can go do the same old same old somewhere else.

i just have issues with mindless blind conformity & fear of the unknown. i'm always actively looking for something new & different.

[Th3 uN1Qu3]

I just *had* to drop into this. I'm glad there are more DJs that care about sound quality, and i'm about to show you that the younger generation knows something about it too. But first i'll give my recommendation...

Given that i'm sure you won't run it into clipping, i'd go for a 400 watt (200 wpc) amp. As said above power rating still doubles regardless if drivers are wired in series or parallel. 160W RMS sounds to me like they'll handle 200 clean watts on music for a long long time.

I'm 19, and i'm a wannabe DJ with a great focus on quality. I've only DJ'd at friends' parties so far (or friends' friends' parties ) but everywhere i went they LOVED me. As a DJ it feels great to mix commercial stuff with non-commercial (and unconventional) music and still have everybody on the dancefloor. A bit of this, a bit of that, a bit of remix, a bit of my own productions. This is what i aim for, this is what i do, and i haven't failed yet.

I won't comment on the ported box thing as i use ported subs, but IMO what makes or breaks a PA are tweeters and filters. Tweeters, coz a lot of PA tweeters i've heard have a large peak at 8-12 KHz and nothing much after that. If you go deaf anyway, what point is there for real treble... I aim for good response at 16k at the very least. And filters, coz they allow you to push crazy amounts of power without blowing stuff up.

I've DJ'd many times with limited power (even on people's Logitechs sometimes) and every time i had to do that the HPF i always carry with me saved my ***. I'm also a transient junkie - there's nothing like using 1/4 power for half the night then suddenly dropping in a dope bassline at full blast, slowly backing it down again for like the next 30 minutes, then repeating the trick. The fun in music is variation, and i feel like we're getting too little of that lately, so i try my best to compensate.

For example last month's Kiss FM Top 40. I could mix that with eyes closed without anybody realizing when i change songs - because they all sound the f***ing same. That just ain't right.

I also have a pair of analog VU meters i use all the time, and most of the times i like to swing the needles right from one peg to the other. But here again appears a problem - pegging the meters requires material that can tolerate it. And since everybody slams into their mastering limiters with more and more enthusiasm, finding material that will allow you to do crazy stuff while still sounding decent is quite hard. I have a few tracks where my VUs sit almost static at the -3dB point if no EQ is applied, this is just PLAIN WRONG!!! Of course overcompression has been discussed so many times already, but it's really getting out of hand.

Even when i use a compressor and limiter on my productions, i can't make anything that i would qualify as sounding "good" with a RMS level higher than -19dB. Yet you see tracks pushing -10dB RMS regularly and some even at -8dB, i think i saw a -6 somewhere too... By the way, some radio stations here have gone so far in the loudness race that they up the bassline one octave and highpass at like 60-80Hz... They sound wrong on even the cheapest car radio. The louder the mix, the poorer the bass. Anyone is free to try and prove me wrong.

In my opinion a "real" DJ, one that really values the music he plays to the crowd, has a tough job. Because all these expensive headphones and the fancy EQ and filtering are needed to fix wrongs that shouldn't have been in the audio in the first place. And on the next track, you start over...

Oh yeah, and i know people who work in pro audio and say that bass below 40Hz is not audible. No sh**...

[Inductor]

Originally Posted by budget minded

... i know local DJs hate me as much as i hate them as one made sure to nix my application at a nightclub because i wanted to bring some much needed funk to the scene.

They will stop making fun of you after you buy your soft domes Fostex tweeters (and good amp, if you need it).
https://www.madisound.com/store/prod...roducts_id=288

[budget minded]

regarding the local DJs, it's not a matter of being made fun of, it's the contempt they have to play ANYTHING funky & upbeat you request, even new songs. EVERYTHING played in most clubs has that annoying west coast "rap with an attitude" sound i despise or even worse is semi-gangsta. back east, living in a REAL hood where a couple people get offed every week, i'd still hear cars going by booming "i ain't no hollerback girl, i ain't no hollerback girl" as well as 1 thing, pon de replay, get busy, hit 'em up style, & there it go (the whistle song), you know, upbeat tunes with some funk to 'em but out here you here some uppity wench belching "i'm bossy" followed by a poser DJ playing "if you're a dirty mother effer do your dirt... if you're a scared mothereffer go to church" when you know the suburban brat would crap his pants just running the guantlet a block for a slice of pizza after 10:00 in da hood for real and would get jacked instantly if he tried to act hard. then there are all those techno DJs who play 140bpm, too fast to dance to, soulless *thump thump thump thump* tunes, like you said, that all sound the same.

i honestly can't tell the difference between techno, house, jungle (totally misleading genre name that DOESN'T sound like tribal syncopation to me), breakbeat (funny, you can't break to it and you aren't playing any funky breaks), drum-n-bass (where's the freakin' drums?!!! where's the freakin' bassline?!!!), electrofunk (stealing the name of an already existing electronic hip-hop genre that IS funky & then getting rid of all traces of funk) etc.

back in the 80s, individual BANDS had more variety in THEIR OWN sound from record to record (even moreso within a given genre like new wave) than all of those electro "genres" that sound exactly like house to me. take the talking heads for example. '77 was mostly a light folksy rock record that was very quaint for the time, then they did more songs about buildings & food which had a slightly darker & rhythmic sound. then came fear of music which was really edgy & angst filled and harder rocking. they totally changed their sound for remain in light turning to a combination brooding electropop sound then when they released speaking in tongues had morphed into a trippy electronic dance band that merged the angst & paranoia of their later work with the bubbly innocence of their fist album. that's just one band having a distinct sound on every album. then, you compare their sound with devo, the b-52s, buzzcocks, bow wow wow, the pretenders, flying lizards, the police, cheap trick & the knack etc. you get an amazing variety of sounds all within one genre, new wave.

i just can't feel techno at all. it has no funk, no bounce & isn't upbeat anymore than gangsta is.

as to sound quality, the first time i heard totally undistorted bass from those tiny infinitys i was sold on small woofers & no ports. if i were to build a cost no option system, i'd have a bunch of high end 8" woofers in nestorovic (push pull) arrays with a ton of 4 1/2" midbass, a ton of bohlander graebner planar mid tweeters and those high powered $700 ribbon tweeters all quad amped. if i won the lottery, i'd build a nightclub with a sound system like that... rows of subs stretching each side of the floor with rows of the smaller speakers overhead.

as i'm not making any money yet, i have to be more practical & inventive, but i think for smaller house parties or parties with adults who'll have more refined musical tastes than the young sheep who don't demand better music or sound and accept the crap they're told to, would appreciate more clarity than those extra 10dB or so. if a car system comparable to my DJ rig (maybe even less so in the mains) can make an entire car wash buzz, i think i can play loud enough for people to dance to at a typical party. i've been to more than 1 party with 1/4 the gear i have. i plan on working cheap too. more than money, i'm out to get some "nice nice".

for what it's worth, one of my own personal tricks will be illuminating the insides of my mains with color changing LEDs as well as the towers they sit on. if you'd like to see a mockup of what each of my 4 towers will look like, check this out
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...TOWERsmall.jpg

i THOUGHT the mains were going to be silver to match the chrome on chrome of my hifonics subs & not translucent pearly white. i'll have to build bases under each sub for better balance, especially outdoors.

here's all of the components
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...DJspeakers.jpg

here's a better look at the mains
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...on/DJmains.jpg

here's a better look at the subs
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z.../submockup.jpg
although this was made before i had precise measurements. there's about a 1/2" gap between the base of the grille and the chrome trim of the subs. besides SQ, i like the idea of going with this because it looks better than typical fugly PA speakers

finally, i have 4x LED projectors (& will add upgrades as budget allows) that i'll either put on top of each tower pointing down or projecting on walls & ceilings etc if that's what a customer wants

here are my LED projectors
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...rtylights1.jpg
and here they are projecting on a wall.
http://i188.photobucket.com/albums/z...rtylights2.jpg
they do all possible color combinations with little groups of lights that occasionally swirl around each other sort of like a disco ball effect

the next piece of gear i want to get would be a behringer DEQ 24/96 digital EQ so i can tune my system to within 1dB of flat for a given location for even better SQ & i'm lusting over denon'$ CD gear