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Old 1st June 2010, 04:55 AM   #1
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Default Dusted off an old project. Morel

Been about 10 years since I started this project. Never finished. This is a Morel MDT33 + MW164(4ohm). The cabinet (if I remember) is about 9liters sealed and stuffed, constructed of braced 1" MDF with a 2" thick front baffle.
Might be overkill, but I didn't want any vibrations from the cabinet. It doesn't seem to. This is a bass deficient design as planned. The xmax of the MW164 is 4mm, which leaves a window of opportunity for damage if your like me and enjoy some spl. So eventually... they will hopefully be part of a larger 3 way system.

Originally I was using CALSOD and Speaker Workshop, fun but without a good microphone I was done for. First and last crossover was a total fail.
As I did back then, after trashing the xover, I started tooling around today doing some "subjective" listening.

I first started with no crossover at all checking the phase of the drivers, having only a 4 conductor pig tail sticking out the back and not being sure what was what. Then I added a 5.6uf cap to each tweeter, which would cross it over somewhere around 3k. (obviously hard to tell until I can measure for sure). Turned out to create a huge hole in the frequency response between the 2 drivers, which was easy to tell, especially with pink noise. Reversing the phase of the tweeter brought them back together, with a dramatic upward tilt (which would be ok I guess if I flipped the speaker upside down...). I ended up reversing the phase of the system, keeping the tweeter connected in phase but reversing the woofer for a downward tilt.

After that I set them up atop the old Snells, messed with the long unused tone controls and had a listen...

For all the possible faults here, they really are kind of amazing to listen to. Deep bass performance aside, they are hitting alot of good points. Female vocals sound, in a word, real. Where my 2 Snell speakers fault {JIV=listenable but lack in pinpoint details- CIV=have a more solid point image, but can get fatiguing} These seem to show signs of the best of both. With the exception of kick drums, Percussion has a limitless feel to it. I was throwing everything my amp had at these(PS Audio 200c), but had to back off for deep bass transients. I also listen to some horns that sounded better then I want to carry on describing.

Piano was eh.. not especially great. There's got to be alot of hash that I cannot see at the upper end of the woofer running full range and at this crosspoint.

Discs used:
Fiona Apple: Tidal
Diana Krall: Quiet Nights
Sheffield Drive: Various/Drum Improv/Harry James etc
Steely Dan: Aja
Dave Brubeck: Time Out
Ray Lamontagne: Trouble
Bill Evans Trio: Explorations
Jamshied Sharifi: A Prayer for the Soul of Layla
McCoy Tyner: Solo (live)
Stereophile Test CD: stph-002-02

Ok well I know this has gotten to be a useless subjective review at this point but wasn't it fun?

So next thing I need to do is bust out the HiVi 10" woofers I bought back then, still in boxes. I went for these since Morels drivers at the time looked like the midrange I already had with the same xmax.. just bigger cones. Dynaudio was a non option, and I couldn't rap my head around using a mid with a 3" voice coil and a woofer with a smaller voice coil...does that make sense? Well, at the time it made sense to me so I bought em, 4" voice coils n all lol.

I see that HiVi can be a pain when it comes to reliable specifications. When I bought them the recommended alignment was waaaay off from what they should be, as tested. I was hoping for the 1.5ft3 vented but under test it was more like 3ft3 vented.... A lot bigger then I hoped for. I'm going to retest them again anyway and possibly shoot for a sealed enclosure. I don't know the model off hand but I'm sure they are long discontinued.

Suggestions please and thank you!
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Old 2nd June 2010, 08:34 AM   #2
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seems you like the sound, a good xover should improve that hash prob;
post the specs of the HiVi when you measure, or if you have the part code maybe someone here's already done it???
Are you thinking of bi-amping? it's a good way to for 3-ways, you can solve baffle step very easily that way & get a step up in sound quality to boot...
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Old 2nd June 2010, 10:32 AM   #3
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Hi Pure Brew, sounds like you have had a similar experience to me with the morel drivers I also started off with just a cap (currently a 4.3uF) on the tweeter, same deal had to invert the tweeter to get rid of a BIG suck out in the freq response.

My MW-144's have a peak at around 4Khz and whilst I initially ran them full range I found that a notch filter at 4K definitely improved the sound. I've had a brief look at the response curves of the MW-164 (morel isreal and morel us) and they also seem to have a response peak around the 5 - 6 Khz mark. You will probably need to do measurements to determine where it is but you might find that at notch filter at the appropriate freq cleans up your hash.

For me running with the 4K notch only on the woofer (MW144's in MTM format) and a 4.3uf Cap and series 2.2 ohms on the tweeter (DMS37) I get a 2nd order bessel acoustic rolloff centered at 3Khz, which so far is measuring and sounding pretty good I am contemplating a more complex crossover giving a third order butterworth or perhaps 4th order LR which will (if sim is accurate) be flatter in freq response, but I'm not 100% sure it will be worth the trouble.

I already have some 10" vifa's waiting to be mated to the MTM's just have to get my active crossover done!

Tony.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 11:05 AM   #4
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I built something along those lines years ago and was quite pleased with it. IMO, the MDT-33 is a great tweet, but I paired it with the (now rare and expensive) 3" VC Dyneaudio midbass alone. The only downside was efficiency- lousy, but the combo had few flaws for a small speaker. somewhere I still have the crossover diagram if you're interested.
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Old 2nd June 2010, 02:00 PM   #5
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Thanks for the replies

PeteMcK- I'll probably won't be bi-amping at least initially. If anything I at least need to get those HiVi woofers out of storage, re-test them and build a test enclosure.I'll might hold off from playing with the T/M crossover until then, since there will most likely be changes when I add the woofer. I'll be sure to post specs and info.

wintermute- Your on point about the peaks. I remember the Morel drivers are known to have this. I'll be addressing this at some point. Fundamentally, a 4" is often better in a 3 way design, but I think the MDT33 will help alot in this role. I bet your MTM setup is truly rewarding tho! What Vifa drivers are you going to use?

Conrad Hoffman-I did find an interesting 2way design utilizing these 2 drivers with cabinet/crossover plans. I actually have the english copy but here it is in Dutch - note the PDF: Strassacker: Speaker, Do-it-yourself (but my MW164 is 4ohm...) However, it strays from power handling at low frequencies for sure. I'd be curious as to what you used as a crossover.

Low efficiency is only going to be a concern for me if the 10" efficiency is low. That will make going active more attractive, I'll just have to wait and see.

What are people using for test setups these days? I used Speaker Workshop/Wallin jig + CALSOD awhile back, but not for freq-response tests.
Can I get any advise on something free or affordable + microphone?

take care

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Old 2nd June 2010, 11:10 PM   #6
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ARTA ARTA Download, with this simple jig: ARTA Jig - AudioBlog: A simple loudspeaker measurement jig for ARTA
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Old 3rd June 2010, 03:42 AM   #7
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Hi Pure Brew, yes I'm very happy with the clarity of voices on the MTM's had the same feeling about female vocals as you, they are magic

The vifa's are M26WR-09-08's they are actually already in 70L BR enclosures (my old 3 ways) First step will be actively crossing to just the woofers in the existing enclosures, but down the track I will make some new (superior) cabinets. I originally was going to use the MDT-33, it is a really nice tweeter, the change to the DMS37 was partially because of price but also because it was designed to mate well with the MW-144's. Getting them time aligned is as simple as flush mounting the tweeter and surface mounting the woofers.

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Old 3rd June 2010, 03:14 PM   #8
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Well, I got the woofers out of storage yesterday. They are HiVi-W10, which are still showing on the website. Overview W10 Hi-end Woofer_HiVi, Inc.


These are the things that attracted me to this driver, based on the specs provided, as I recall.

1) Similar motor structure. Other then simply style, It seemed logical to have a voicecoil that wasn't actually smaller then the mid in a 3 way design, and also that It had higher XMAX then the MID (naturally). The Morel woofers tended to just be bigger versions of the midrange, with the same shallow xmax. I'm not talking about the "ultimate" drivers.

2) Efficiency. The MW164 is 86db posted (my 4ohm version will affect this). The HiVi-W10 is 90db. I'm hoping this will help keep to overall efficiency up, with less resistor loading

3) Modest enclosure size. 45liters is pretty manageable. Well that was the thinking then, but under test the VAS was ALOT different, I'll have to retest. If the proper alignment ends up in the 3cu.ft. range, which I suspect, I may have to discard these.

4) Price. Parts Express closeout, about $100US for the pair.
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