Im looking for some recommendations for 10 inch woofers for use in a narrow U frame or open baffle, 2 a side for a small room. Lower bass will be filled in with a closed box sub if necessary. Will be using a DCX2496 for eq and crossover
Id like the woofers to play up to around 1800 hz or higher so i can try them with different wide range drivers, waveguides etc on a seperate open baffle sitting on top. Ive attached a drawing of some ideas i have using drivers i have laying around the house.
Ive been looking at some of the eminence alpha range which are available here in australia. would any of these work for me?
thanks
Id like the woofers to play up to around 1800 hz or higher so i can try them with different wide range drivers, waveguides etc on a seperate open baffle sitting on top. Ive attached a drawing of some ideas i have using drivers i have laying around the house.
Ive been looking at some of the eminence alpha range which are available here in australia. would any of these work for me?
thanks
What are your SPL requirements? All four options will have directivity limitations due to the baffle width, large MW or TW separations, and relatively high MW crossover frequencies. Lowering the crossover will improve that aspect of things and make it easier to operate a 10" within its pistonic region and below the baffle's dipole peak.
If you're looking for low cost 10s the Alphas aren't a bad choice but I'd bet the first cone breakup is 1.4kHz. Wouldn't cross 'em at 1.7. The Peerless 830668 is likely a better choice.
If you're looking for low cost 10s the Alphas aren't a bad choice but I'd bet the first cone breakup is 1.4kHz. Wouldn't cross 'em at 1.7. The Peerless 830668 is likely a better choice.
Hi twest,
Designs 1 and 3 are somewhat a mash up of the Orion and the CS2. How does the Orion solve directivity issues? CS2 uses the 15" eminince alpha which i imagine deals with cone breakup, dipole peak by filters in the dcx?
Re SPL's, im not after concert / live levels, I usally listen at moderate levels in my small room anyway.
Thanks for the peerless driver recommendation, I'll look it up...
Designs 1 and 3 are somewhat a mash up of the Orion and the CS2. How does the Orion solve directivity issues? CS2 uses the 15" eminince alpha which i imagine deals with cone breakup, dipole peak by filters in the dcx?
Re SPL's, im not after concert / live levels, I usally listen at moderate levels in my small room anyway.
Thanks for the peerless driver recommendation, I'll look it up...
These 2 drivers are roughly the same price here in aus. The alpha 10a does have a large peak after 1khz. Can this be successfully filtered out with the dcx?
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/alpha-10a.pdf
Which of these drivers would be more fast /snappy / dynamic ?
http://www.eminence.com/pdf/alpha-10a.pdf
Which of these drivers would be more fast /snappy / dynamic ?
Greetings!
My vote would be for #2. I've got a Fostex FE103E OB over an Alpha 15in woofer in an H-Frame and absolutely L-O-V-E it! The dual 10's in a U-Frame should be able to get you fairly low (works for Linkwitz), and you can keep them narrow enough that blocking sound from behind shouldn't be a problem. Even with a 15in woofer in the bottom, my speakers' footprint are only 17in wide by 16in deep (1"X16"X38" baffle).
My vote would be for #2. I've got a Fostex FE103E OB over an Alpha 15in woofer in an H-Frame and absolutely L-O-V-E it! The dual 10's in a U-Frame should be able to get you fairly low (works for Linkwitz), and you can keep them narrow enough that blocking sound from behind shouldn't be a problem. Even with a 15in woofer in the bottom, my speakers' footprint are only 17in wide by 16in deep (1"X16"X38" baffle).
I would recommend these Visaton WS 25E. Their TSP are near to perfect for OB at decent levels. Almost no external EQ needed. Look at the latest OB project with them from Germany:
An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.
1800 Hz with a 10" driver is silly, because it will start to beam at ~ 800 Hz. Therefore my vote is No 3. But DON'T integrate the tweeter into the baffle. It needs to sit on top of the baffle with a second tweeter back to back.
AE Speakers --- Superb Quality, Unforgettable Performance, Definitely.
Use the second coil on each driver *actively* to boost the lower freq. response.
Use the second coil on each driver *actively* to boost the lower freq. response.
Vertical directivity on the Orion is well addressed through crossover choice---1.44kHz TM and 120Hz MW. To my knowledge SL's never published horizontal polars and I've not seen third party measurements but SL does mention directivity control figures which suggest the Orion's designed to be more directive than the recent wave of minimally baffled or no baffle here on DIY. SL's recommended setup where the speakers are toed in to point directly at the listening position supports this as well.
Pretty much the only complaints I've heard about the Orion are on the horizontal directivity mismatch at the TM cross. Most of that's due to the W22 having the usual Seas loss of pistonic motion at 500Hz and on axis hotness. If you model the Orion in Edge you can get a pretty good sense of how the baffle will behave with ideal drivers. I've not done this, but I'd bet the horizontals would be decent with a better chosen eight inch, although still with wobbles at the crossovers.
The Orion's U baffles probably aren't deep enough to cause significant mismatch between front and back wave directvity. The acoustic center misalignment between the H frame and the dress panel's not ideal though; SL corrects the front wave in the ASP but that means the back wave's twice as far out. The low MW cross means this isn't a big deal but there'll be a bit of a mismatch between the front and back vertical polars as a result. My experience is the lack of time alignment is more noticeable, though.
However, all four options here have larger MW spacing at higher crossovers than the Orion does. I would be concerned about vertical lobing and imaging; since you're not after concert levels the obvious fixes are to move the 10s up on the baffles and drop the crossover frequency. However if you're not locked to 10s and the high MW crossover you'll find the vertical polars are better with a single larger driver.
Do you have a link for the CS2? It's not ringing a bell.
You can easily EQ the peak flat but, if I'm correct the cone's in breakup, the sound quality will suffer due to the lack of pistonicity.
Not I, and it's not listed on Eminence's website or any of the North American dealers I use. Got a link to specs?
They look like they fit the bill. Any experience with these yourself? What do the reviewers in the magazine say about the woofer?
nice
couldnt see any prices though??Thanks for the thorough explanation of the Orions design.
I was referring to the Emerald Physics CS2. These have been updated (to the CS2.3) but the original version uses two eminence alpha 15s and a 12 inch waveguide/compression driver. Crossover is, I believe, 1200 hz. Those 15 inch drivers must beam like crazy yet these speakers are highly praised.
Unfortunately these arent available in aus like many other good drivers!
http://www.ciare.com/pdf/catalogo/CS252S.pdf
Ciare are honest enough to publish ugly frequency responses, so this is probably true. Maybe there are car audio dealers in Australia who can order these drivers.
Ciare are honest enough to publish ugly frequency responses, so this is probably true. Maybe there are car audio dealers in Australia who can order these drivers.
nice
Probably about 269 US each.
For less than half that amount you can get the Aurum Cantus 10" DVC.. though I suspect it's less than half as good.
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=296-432
No personal experience, but I have suggested those drivers to others a few times and they seemed to like them. The WS 25E are old school drivers - no special vents, but noiseless.
Two comments from reviewers (you need to translate the second one, I'm afraid):
Audio Circle dipole
no baffle loudspeaker "Nobbi"
Below are distortion measurements for the audio circle dipole, NOT the individual WS25E.
Rudolf
Attachments
You could consider 2x Alpha-8A, in 2.5way design
Or you may even have luck with combining Alpha 10A and 8A, also 2.5way
And maybe play with "coating"
Just for starters 2 suggestions for the WS25E in OB:
Left for a wider baffle and lowest response. You need to EQ between 50-250 Hz with a bandpass filter. It won't do loud of course.
Right for integration with a subwoofer at 80 Hz and a bit higher Xover to the midrange.
If you know, what configuration you are aiming at, I could simulate some U frame too.
Rudolf
Left for a wider baffle and lowest response. You need to EQ between 50-250 Hz with a bandpass filter. It won't do loud of course.
Right for integration with a subwoofer at 80 Hz and a bit higher Xover to the midrange.
If you know, what configuration you are aiming at, I could simulate some U frame too.
Rudolf
Attachments
"the Orion's designed to be more directive than the recent wave of minimally baffled or no baffle here on DIY"
So having minimal or no baffle gets the mid driver operating higher in range, before the on axis notches kick in - at the expense of less directivity ~ horizontally and vertically?
With the horizontal and/ or vertical directivity depending on the height and width of the baffle?
So having minimal or no baffle gets the mid driver operating higher in range, before the on axis notches kick in - at the expense of less directivity ~ horizontally and vertically?
With the horizontal and/ or vertical directivity depending on the height and width of the baffle?
True for any driver, not just the mid. Note that for these purposes there's no distinction between the driver flange and the baffle; a tweeter that's four inches across has a four inch baffle and corresponding lowering of the dipole peak.
Well, hopefully lower than that due to the 15A's ginormous cone breakup starting just above 1kHz. With the Orion it's difficult to tell how much people are praising the acoustic characteristics as opposed to the active crossover and use of equalization. The same seems true of the CS2.
Drivers tend to maintain decent directivity somewhat above the dipole peak. I've not seen off axis data for the 15A, but the beamwidth of a well built 15 narrows only slightly up to 1kHz. The current CS2s are crossed LR8; if that's true of the old ones as well there's a potential of maintaining fairly smooth horizontal directivity in the design so long as the waveguide comes in correctly and the baffle wasn't much wider than the 15s. Consistency is generally more important than the specific amount of directivity; dig up Earl Geddes' paper on Summa 15 directivity and take a look at the sonograms. There was a rather big thread on it in this forum a while back.
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