Suggestion for 10" woofers for U-frame dipole

[human.bin]

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.

is there a way to buy the magazine online in pdf or something?

 

[otto88]

"the beamwidth of a well built 15 narrows only slightly up to 1 kHz"
TW, You seem to have a fine understanding/ knowledge of drivers and directivity.

I have some nice Lambda TD15M “mid woofers”, bought when I only thought in terms of effortless on-axis frequency response, with the 1st priority of getting great midbass/ lower mids.
(For mostly pop/ rock/ blues, particularly trying to achieve life like percussion: drums and bass).

They’re very smooth on axis up remarkably high, and better than most 15”s off axis too, due I recall partly to a fortuitous cone profile.
I want to use them on an OB. But I’ve been struggling to think of equally good/ appropriate drivers to cross them to above, and at what Hz
. . so I’ve accumulated some drivers (thinking I have “the answer”, then seeing the smooth off axis weaknesses in my ideas . .)

So my three OB, I hope Final, ideas are:
1. The TD15M’s (98 dB) on a large open baffle > passive XO at 2200 Hz to (98 dB) “nude” tweeters (that I just got)
2. The TD15M’s on the same baffle > active XO c 200-300 Hz to 97 db 8” wide-rangers > then passive XO to 97+ dB “nude” super tweeters
3. TD15M’s on the same baffle - active XO c 200-300 Hz to 97 db 8” wide-rangers >an *active XO c 1500 Hz to “nude” Peerless HDS tweeters
(when I get to stage 2, all with the subs)

Crossovers via PC, most likely Allocator+ PLParEQX3+ Bidule, as I learnt recently

(Before i settle to cut & assemble the wood & mountings) . . what would you folks listening recommend?

 

[ScottG]

With the Orion it's difficult to tell how much people are praising the acoustic characteristics as opposed to the active crossover and use of equalization. The same seems true of the CS2.

Yes, that's a HUGE issue that is often overlooked.

 

[chris661]

Has anyone heard of the eminence alpha 10b? These are half the price of the 10a's over here....

Having owned one for some time, it's seen various uses. It's first was in a (far too small) sub. It did Ok, certainly took a hammering when I turned it up.

I put it in a guitar combo after that, mainly because I had it lying around.
If you cross it over as low as 1.8kHz, I expect you'll be Ok. It sounds pretty good for rock music, crossed over to a tweeter (at more like 3.5kHz). I expect if you cross it over at the lower point you've suggested, it will do even better, because you'll avoid all those cone break-ups.

It's a rugged driver that won't fail on you.

Chris


Edit - I was talking about the a version. Never heard of the b version.

 

[twest820]

I think you're well aware of the directionality issues with 1 and 2. Your call there.

Don't lock on Bidule yet. Jan (who runs Thuneau) recommends Console. I'm not sure what David (who runs Refined Audiometrics) uses, but he'd not heard of Bidule until recently. I use Bidule because I found Console was prone to glitches on my laptop. For VST stuff, always start by trying a few demos and seeing what works best.

 

[skorpion]

Yes, you can download Klang + Ton via this link: Lloxx: KLANG + TON - das Lautsprecher-Selbstbau-Magazin .

/Erling

 

[human.bin]

thanks skorpion!

 

[twest820]

Yes, that's a HUGE issue that is often overlooked.

I prefer the clean sound, more consistent directivity, and reduced room engagement of nude, swinging dipoles. But a biamped/triamped/quadamped box speaker with minimal vibration, minimal box resonances, flat SPL, linear phase, low nonlinear distortion, and crossovers chosen to avoid driver issues is still pretty darn good. The Orion's neither nude, swinging, or linear phase, but SL did take all those design aspects under consideration and do a good job of optimizing them within his chosen constraints of a three way with an analog crossover that goes to ~110dB.

 

[Bratislav]

Yes, that's a HUGE issue that is often overlooked.

People like Glenn Strauss and Peter Aczel couldn't care less about technology, all they commented on is sound. After all, they have seen it (heard it?) all, or well, most. Certainly more than most mere mortals.
In fact it is the technology that most people comment AGAINST (having 8+ channel amplifiers and multitude of opamps), as it often makes them prejudical and less objective (no triode or horn fan has ever commented positive about Orion, with few notable exceptions e.g. Lynn Olson)

 

[el`Ol]

This Visaton doesn't look so nice, but wouldn't it be wetter than the WS25E?
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories

 

[Rudolf]

This Visaton doesn't look so nice, but wouldn't it be wetter than the WS25E?
Visaton - Lautsprecher und Zubehör, Loudspeakers and Accessories

Apparently the W250_8 is not offered by the australian distributor - so this discussion is academic for the thread opener. I've got those W250 for myself, but I would prefer the WS25E for dipole use, if I had to decide again.

Rudolf

 

[dabbler]

Just for starters 2 suggestions for the WS25E in OB:

Left for a wider baffle and lowest response. You need to EQ between 50-250 Hz with a bandpass filter. It won't do loud of course.
Right for integration with a subwoofer at 80 Hz and a bit higher Xover to the midrange.

If you know, what configuration you are aiming at, I could simulate some U frame too.

Rudolf

Im not quite sure of configuration actually and have started reading up alot on u frames, H-frames, baffleless etc and am yet to make a decision - there is more to DIY dipole than meets the eye! I have translated the article in the german mag and the review seems favourable. I might also look into the upper range drivers used in this design

Thanks a heap for your help, this is great forum with lots of enthusiam!

 

[matevana]

Im looking for some recommendations for 10 inch woofers for use in a narrow U frame or open baffle, 2 a side for a small room. Lower bass will be filled in with a closed box sub if necessary. Will be using a DCX2496 for eq and crossover
thanks

Have you considered evaluating automotive 10" woofers? Some model quite well in dipoles due to both a high QTS and high xmax. The moving mass may be a bit high (150 grams) so the baffles will need some extra mass.

I completed a very small 10" dipole project called the Diminui. My Alpine "helper" woofers work to about 500Hz where a small 3" peerless full range takes over. The system is active and use a DEQ2496 to address cancellation and tame the in-room response, and time aligns the higher frequencies as well. The quality and quantity of bass is exceptional, especially for its footprint.

If you are interested, my project details are here:

http://home.comcast.net/~cunundrum

Ed

 

[dabbler]

Thanks Ed, nice little project. I have actually had to change my project a bit due to space constraints. I am now planning on 25cm wide open baffle with 8 inch mid and dual 8-inch woofers in a u-frame.

I have some spare visaton B200's laying around which im hoping to use for the mid as long as they can reach down to 120-150hz with some EQ. Tweeter will most likely be Neo 3 non-pdr.

Would like to get more opinions on potential woofers and crossover point for B200 and Neo 3. Am open to the idea of using automotive subs however im not sure the best way to connect the pair considering they are 4 ohm. If I can get down to 60-70hz flat @ reasonably high SPL with lots of eq I will be happy.

Pics and edge sim for mid attached.

 

[matevana]

Thanks Ed, nice little project. . Am open to the idea of using automotive subs however im not sure the best way to connect the pair considering they are 4 ohm. If I can get down to 60-70hz flat @ reasonably high SPL with lots of eq I will be happy.

Pics and edge sim for mid attached.

Many of the automotive subs have dual voice coils which give you a wide latitude with regard to net impedience. Auto subs typically are offered with dual 4ohm coils (yielding 2 or 8 ohms net) or dual 2ohm coils (yielding 1 or 4 ohms net). Since you are considering two 8" subs, your final impedience as seen by the amp could be either 1,4,or 16 ohms for the first combination, 2 or 8 ohms for the second combination.

If you are looking to achieve 8 ohms final impedience, two dual 2 ohm VC's wired in series would yield 4, and each driver wired in series would bring the total load to 8. You will lose a bit in efficiency, but auto subs are inexpensive and offer better than average excursion, since you need to make up for the lower surface area of the 8's. I might suggest you consider 1 x 10 high xmax woofer instead. You could still get by with a baffle as narrow as 11 - 12", and it would take up less real estate on the vertical plane.

With the B200's I would suggest a startng point of 150Hz low pass, 2nd order, and as high as 9-10k HP, possibly first order. I find that an inexpensive active x/o is worth it's weight in gold when modeling crossover points for OB. I like to hear the result and live with it for a while, before I determine the values and build my final crossover.

Ed

 

[dabbler]

Ed thanks for that, I must brush up on my high school electronics! I realise there are many advantages to be gained by going to 10" however I would like to slim the cabinet as much as possible, hopefully down to 23cm. Now that I have commited to a design I have started a new thread here to explore my options further...